Invisibility > Invincibility?

Discussion and feedback for Playtonic's debut game, platformer adventure game Yooka-Laylee!
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Taylor
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Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Taylor » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:00 pm

Too long, didn't read: Replace Wonderwing invincibility with the ability to turn invisible.

Taylor wrote:You'd collect an object similar to golden feathers; possibly a reptile scale such as a "Rainbow Scale", a "Light Scale", or a "Shade Scale". (These are completely random names I made up just because I wanted to colour some words in).

The scales would be limited -- a maximum of about 10 -- and they'd work in the same way golden feathers did. Instead of becoming invincible, though, you'd become invisible.


Playtonic's Twitter page hinted at stealth being in the game. I'm unsure if it was a joke or not (in reference to the news about Metal Gear Solid), but I can imagine some 'stealth' challenges and think it could be quite fun.

If the main character is a chameleon, stealth makes a lot of sense. Playtonic have said that if they revealed the animal duo now, the moves would become obvious. What's more obvious than a camouflaging chameleon?

    One thing that can bug me about the Tooie-style 'stealth' (tiptoeing past a sleeping enemy) is that it's so slow and painstaking, especially if you mess up right at the end. It's fine for short challenges, but if stealth were to become a bigger feature in Ukulele, it'd need some tweaking.

Maybe the stealth in Ukulele could run at normal speed, but the characters would turn transparent. You'd see their outline reflecting some light, but no colour at all, or alternatively the characters could become translucent (washed out, see-through colours). During this time, enemies will be oblivious to you.

Perhaps you'll have to collect an item (like golden feathers) to remain transparent; it'd be the Ukulele version of invincibility from the Banjo games. This would mean that you wouldn't be able to camouflage all the time, which might be better as I don't think people should be sneaking their way across the entire game.

    I can imagine trying to stealth past a lengthy course in which you need to keep picking up more 'golden feathers' to remain invisible. If you miss one, you will lose the invisibility and fail the challenge, so you'll need to be quick.

    Another stealth challenge idea I had was mentioned in this post: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=291&start=8 -- essentially sneaking into a dangerous area to rescue somebody.

Presuming one of the duo is a chameleon, the invisibility item could possibly be a reptile scale. A "Rainbow Scale"? A "Light Scale"? A "Shade Scale"? Who knows.

Thoughts?
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby dotEXE » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:29 pm

When you said invisibility could be the new wonderwing I was like "damn that's a good idea". I don't want toooooo much stealth in this, because while the stealth sections in Banjo Kazooie and Tooie were novel, it could get old quick.

That challenge where missing a scale results in failure is really cool too. Maybe it takes 15 scales to get through the whole course, you can only hold 10, and there are 8 along the path (allowing some forgiveness). Or just 5 and no forgiveness >:D
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Taylor » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:59 pm

dotEXE wrote:When you said invisibility could be the new wonderwing I was like "damn that's a good idea". I don't want toooooo much stealth in this, because while the stealth sections in Banjo Kazooie and Tooie were novel, it could get old quick.


Heh, thanks. I think the sneaking sections in the Banjo games worked well because they were very limited. Tiptoeing around is slow and laborious and wouldn't work if it was used everywhere, which is why I think Ukulele should not slow down gameplay with the stealth sections. Instead, allow the characters to camouflage into the environment and continue to run around at the same speed.

I agree it shouldn't be used everywhere though. Just like Wonderwing, it'd be a special move for certain sections.

dotEXE wrote:That challenge where missing a scale results in failure is really cool too. Maybe it takes 15 scales to get through the whole course, you can only hold 10, and there are 8 along the path (allowing some forgiveness). Or just 5 and no forgiveness >:D


Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking. :) I would go for no forgiveness. :twisted: Or maybe you could play the challenge twice; once easy and once hard, each time giving you a different collectible, similar to the Canary Mary races.
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Shoegayzer
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Shoegayzer » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:27 pm

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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Exaskryz » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:41 pm

I think it would be a fantastic mechanic.

Building off of the scales idea: What about a minigame challenge kind of like Vile's where you have to collect a particular color at a particular time?

This wouldn't be exactly like Vile's, but imagine that you can only attack a boss opponent from behind. This character will slowly scan the room while you're camouflaged so that you have time to attack him from behind. But your enemy will always face you and launch attacks at you while you're not camouflaged. Imagine the game mechanic is the room changes color. If you're currently green, you're very visible on a red background. You need to consume a red scale to stay camouflaged. Then 10 or 15 seconds later, the room has turned blue. You have to keep collecting different scales and sneaking behind your opponent before your camouflage fails. (And using an individual duration of a scale like 5 seconds isn't totally unreasonable either.)
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Shoegayzer » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:03 pm

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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Taylor » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:21 pm

Shoegayzer wrote:This is a nifty idea, I like it. I feel it's similar to invincibility in that no one is going to hit you as easily because they can't see you, but can still potentially hit you if you get too close, giving up the jig and ending stealth as well. It sounds like it would feel more balanced and challenging than 100% invulnerability if done right.


That was my thinking too. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=188&p=2839&hilit=wonderwing#p2839 - This thread raised the point that invincibility might not be needed any more. I have to agree that I never use Wonderwing in the Banjo games, but turning invisible could offer just as much invulnerability while also creating opportunities for cool challenges.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby GrayMagicΓ » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:28 pm

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think I'd enjoy it. One of my biggest gripes with Tooie was just how many of the moves were so situational. Wonderwing doubling as a panic button gives it a practical use, I can't think of many times where stealth could help with combat.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Taylor » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:29 pm

GrayMagicΓ wrote:It's an interesting idea, but I don't think I'd enjoy it. One of my biggest gripes with Tooie was just how many of the moves were so situational. Wonderwing doubling as a panic button gives it a practical use, I can't think of many times where stealth could help with combat.


Stealth could easily be used as a panic button. It'd make the enemies lose you and they'd walk off.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Shoegayzer » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:31 pm

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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby GrayMagicΓ » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:06 pm

Taylor wrote:
GrayMagicΓ wrote:It's an interesting idea, but I don't think I'd enjoy it. One of my biggest gripes with Tooie was just how many of the moves were so situational. Wonderwing doubling as a panic button gives it a practical use, I can't think of many times where stealth could help with combat.


Stealth could easily be used as a panic button. It'd make the enemies lose you and they'd walk off.

Ah, so it would be usable even after being detected? I was picturing something more along the lines of prowl (only usable outside of combat, can move after stealthing) than glyphed camoflauge (using it in combat resets mob aggro, and you can maintain stealth after use if glyphed), but with a consumable required for use. That could easily be used in practical situations, without completely nullifying them like Wondering does.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Taylor » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:11 pm

GrayMagicΓ wrote:glyphed camoflauge (using it in combat resets mob aggro, and you can maintain stealth after use if glyphed), but with a consumable required for use.


This is pretty much my idea. You'd collect an object similar to golden feathers; possibly a reptile scale such as a "Rainbow Scale", a "Light Scale", or a "Shade Scale".
(I wanted to write this again because it looks pretty, okay).

The scales would be limited -- a maximum of about 10 -- and they'd work in the same way golden feathers did. Instead of becoming invincible, though, you'd become invisible.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby dotEXE » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:51 pm

I'm fine with situational moves. There'll be plenty of variety, having a single move for a small subset of events is fine. Mario does it plenty with mechanics. And my favorite Mario form, Boot Mario, appears in exactly one stage in SMB3.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby GrayMagicΓ » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:57 pm

dotEXE wrote:I'm fine with situational moves. There'll be plenty of variety, having a single move for a small subset of events is fine. Mario does it plenty with mechanics. And my favorite Mario form, Boot Mario, appears in exactly one stage in SMB3.

But the boot is only available in that one level. It's more comparable to the transformations; their boundaries are clearly marked, and they never feel gimmicky. It would be like if Mario had an "ultra jump" button if the ultra jump could only be used in specific areas; not too different from the spring jump pad.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Quartzy » Mon May 04, 2015 12:26 am

I think I like the idea of Yooka turning invisible for stealth, or changing colours.

But I was also thinking about how real life chameleons change colour based on mood, so why not apply his colour to his health?

Green = Full Health
Yellow = Three Health
Blue = Two Health
Red = One hit left

I'd like that. A bit of a Sparx from Spyro type deal.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Dracul JOSHI » Mon May 04, 2015 12:53 am

I like stealth games...

They always tend to be rather slow depending on how familiar you are with the enemies' exact paths though.

I don't really know how you would integrate that any better than the Donkey Kong 64 Invisible-Chunky sections...

But I will probably like them either way.

My worries really go more towards the reception of them to inpatient people.

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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Dracul JOSHI » Mon May 04, 2015 1:04 am

relevant:

http://twistedsifter.com/2012/11/ten-th ... hameleons/

Many people think chameleons change colour to blend in with their surroundings. Scientists disagree. Their studies show that light, temperature and mood cause chameleons to change colour. Sometimes changing colour can make the chameleon more comfortabl. Sometimes it helps the animal communicate with other chameleons.

That doesn't mean that I am agaisnt stealth sections, but I am for science and facts. ^^

Chameleon eyes have a 360-degree arc of vision and can see two directions at once. Chameleons have the most distinctive eyes of any reptile. Their upper and lower eyelids are joined, with only a pinhole large enough for the pupil to see through. They can rotate and focus separately to observe two different objects simultaneously, which lets their eyes move independently from each other.

This gives them a full 360-degree arc of vision around their body. When prey is located, both eyes can be focused in the same direction, giving sharp stereoscopic vision and depth perception. Chameleons have very good eyesight for reptiles, letting them see small insects from a long (5–10 m) distance.


Chameleons vary greatly in size and body structure, with maximum total length varying from 15 millimetres (0.6 in) in male Brookesia micra (one of the world’s smallest reptiles) to 68.5 centimetres (30 in) in the male Furcifer oustaleti.

Tiny Kong's Shrinking anybody? No? Just me? Oh well...

6. Happy Feet. The feet of chameleons are highly adapted to movement in trees (arboreal locomotion). On each foot there are five clearly distinguished toes that are grouped into a flattened section of either two or three toes, giving each foot a tongs-like appearance. On the front feet the outer group contains two toes, whereas the inner group contains three. On the rear feet this arrangement is reversed. These specialized feet allow chameleons to grip tightly onto narrow or rough branches. Each toe is also equipped with a sharp claw to help grip on surfaces when climbing.

I see a lot of climbable poles in Yooka's future... horizontal ones as well as vertical ones.

9. Ultraviolet vision. Chameleons can see in both visible and ultraviolet light. Chameleons exposed to ultraviolet light show increased social behaviour and activity levels and are more inclined to bask and feed. They are also more likely to reproduce as it has a positive effect on the pineal gland.

I don't know about you, but that sounds rather fun... not sure how to use it in a platformer, mind you.

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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Exaskryz » Mon May 04, 2015 1:15 am

Quartzy wrote:I think I like the idea of Yooka turning invisible for stealth, or changing colours.

But I was also thinking about how real life chameleons change colour based on mood, so why not apply his colour to his health?

Green = Full Health
Yellow = Three Health
Blue = Two Health
Red = One hit left

I'd like that. A bit of a Sparx from Spyro type deal.


No idea what Sparx is, but I'd be cool with Yooka's ears changing color or something small like that to indicate general health. I don't know about the entire character changing though.
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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Quartzy » Mon May 04, 2015 1:33 am


No idea what Sparx is, but I'd be cool with Yooka's ears changing color or something small like that to indicate general health. I don't know about the entire character changing though.


I never played a Spyro game honestly, but Sparx is a dragonfly and changes colours to indicate Spyro's health.

And I thought about the entirety of Yooka because that would just be easier to see. Yes I realize people who are colourblind play video games, but aesthetically it'd be easier to tell, other than remembering how many times you get hit.
The green acrobat duo is coming soon...

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Re: Invisibility > Invincibility?

Postby Quartzy » Mon May 04, 2015 1:34 am

Exaskryz wrote:
Quartzy wrote:I think I like the idea of Yooka turning invisible for stealth, or changing colours.

But I was also thinking about how real life chameleons change colour based on mood, so why not apply his colour to his health?

Green = Full Health
Yellow = Three Health
Blue = Two Health
Red = One hit left

I'd like that. A bit of a Sparx from Spyro type deal.


No idea what Sparx is, but I'd be cool with Yooka's ears changing color or something small like that to indicate general health. I don't know about the entire character changing though.


I never played a Spyro game honestly, but Sparx is a dragonfly and changes colours to indicate Spyro's health.

And I thought about the entirety of Yooka because that would just be easier to see. Yes I realize people who are colourblind play video games, but aesthetically it'd be easier to tell, other than remembering how many times you get hit.

Oops. I made a big mistake. Hope a moderator can fix it.
The green acrobat duo is coming soon...


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