Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Discussion and feedback for Playtonic's debut game, platformer adventure game Yooka-Laylee!
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lavamario
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Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby lavamario » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:25 pm

Not a big fan of the tail spin. I don't like how spammable it is and I don't like the lack of oomph once it connects on an enemy. Even worse, the enemies this time around don't seem to react in satisfying ways. They poof just right before they hit the ground. In Banjo you would see the force of your roll knocking them backwards, as their limp body slouched on the ground. Or their eyes would explode, or their hat would be knocked off from the force. It gave enemies a bit more personality and variation, but most importantly it felt good to kill them.

Yooka-Laylee almost seems kind of cheap in comparison. It's things like this and the way the physics based balls react to your movements that give me a sort of unpolished impression of the game.

Just curious if anyone else feels this way.

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Yavga
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Yavga » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:01 pm

Yes agreed, that was the first thing I noticed when playing the sandbox. Every gameplay demo so far hasn't touched upon that. Kind of funny... I mean, Donkey Kong 64 really outdid this so you'd think they know how to implement this well. Oh well, perhaps it's just a thing for near-release to touch upon. can't be that hard to add a bleep or a bloop or another wacky sound effect.

Attacks lack "oomph!"
Last edited by Yavga on Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Rasmusic » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:07 pm

I agree as well. I think they could use a bit more animation and sounds maybe to get the job done.
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lavamario
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby lavamario » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:16 pm

Good point on the sound, that's also part of it. Needs a bit more punch to the impact.

I know it sounds small, but its definitely high up on the things-I-hope-they-change list.

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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Spydr Webz » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:13 pm

I also agree with this, and it's one of the things I'm actually weirdly worried about. I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but the tail spin attack just seems "cheap" as you put it. Maybe it's the animation itself? I don't know. It doesn't appear very satisfying to me.

Another thing that bothered me was Yooka's tongue grabbing onto ledges. There was no animation other than his tongue shooting out for a split second pulling him in a certain direction while he remained standing idle. Maybe they fixed that too, though.

It's good that these are the things I'm worried about (because they're so small compared to other potential issues), but with all the times we'll be fighting enemies, I know the attack move will start to bother me or bore me with its lack of "oomph."

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Yavga
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Yavga » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:19 pm

Slightly off-topic but some things are obviously still unfinished.

Newest trailer:
- Tongue grapple latches?
- Egyptian walls? (all over the casino)
- transparant blocks?
- golfball physics? (Unchanged since toybox)

Hell, they could have made this trailer months ago and only decided to publish it now.

Then again I understand the feeling, I mean... We don't see progress on the same problems every trailer. Hence my theory of the trailers already existing for some time. If not than... Start worrying for yet another delay ;)
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Octopeart
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Octopeart » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:44 pm

From the Toybox, I thought fighting enemies mostly felt good, I just hope you don't only ever encounter groups of enemies at a time, where you have to stop and fight them all for no reason. I'd rather have single enemies placed in dangerous positions- for example, near the Mollycool in Tribalstack Tropics.

Someone should tweet Playtonic and ask how recent this footage is! (I'd be happy if it were final)

Aceshighhhh
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Aceshighhhh » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:53 am

100% agree

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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Youre » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:38 pm

Since the Toybox is not a complete representation of all of the YL assets, there's a possibility that the small taste that we get with combat is indeed minimal.

It seems like the mobs that we do encounter are low on the food chain, so to speak. These mobs could be placed in the world to be a nuisance or to obstruct a bigger goal -- like toggle a bunch of switches before the time runs out. So in a way, that could justify why its not as satisfying to get rid of them.

I'll bet that we could later expect similar mobs to throw things and do some other stuff that requires more strategy.

croissant
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby croissant » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:44 pm

I think the tailspin does feel a bit dull and uninteresting. A headbutt or a punch attack would probably feel more engaging. I also find that the physics in Banjo-Kazooie felt more fluid and meaty. May wanna thicken the viscosity of the air, so to speak.

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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Piet » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:26 am

croissant wrote:I think the tailspin does feel a bit dull and uninteresting. A headbutt or a punch attack would probably feel more engaging. I also find that the physics in Banjo-Kazooie felt more fluid and meaty. May wanna thicken the viscosity of the air, so to speak.

Good point!

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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Taylor » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:30 am

I'm not so sure if defeating enemies feels lackluster, but I definitely agree that the game lacked certain animations, sound effects and polishing in general, going by previous gameplay footage. Lots of tiny things missing that can make the game appear cheap, or even amateur. E.g. off the top of my head: no pushing animation for the giant ball in the Toy Box, and the red/white challenge rings disappearing suddenly without any satisfying effects.

The latest Tribalstack Tropics video, however, does appear to have improved on these things a lot. I also love the new enemy design with the skull face; I hope these are world-specific, similar to the various Grublin styles in Banjo-Kazooie. I.e. if the same mob creature appears in Glitterglaze Glazier, give them Yeti designs instead of skull faces, or something like that. (Edit: re-watching the Capitol Cashino trailer, it appears the mob enemy take on a casino-like appearance, so that's a good sign).

Oh also, despite what some people are saying, the Egyptian walls in Capitol Cashino make total sense to me. Real casinos are often themed like this -- Egyptian tombs are known for being littered in gold and riches, which is what a casino wants to portray.
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jtn191
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby jtn191 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:38 pm

The enemy sound effects are rad though, maybe dev's kids?

Spydr Webz
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Spydr Webz » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:34 pm

Yeah, the Egyptian walls make sense. As stated by someone above, Casinos always have themes like this, usually relating to gold, treasure, or another form of riches (Royal palace, Egyptian pyramid/tomb, Pirate ship, etc.).

I really hope that the other things that look unpolished get taken care of though. The four things I can think of off the top of my head are:

    -Attacking and defeating enemies. As already stated, it feels weak and unsatisfying. It doesn't actually feel like you're doing anything... somehow, in BK, BT and DK64, you can actually "feel" the attack and then the enemy flying off defeated. Something tells me it has something to do with the length and size of Yooka's tail. It feels more like I'm just slapping the enemies with a wet rope than knocking them out.

    -The tongue grapple. The animation looks off, although I'm sure this is something that has been fixed.

    -The ball/box physics and the lack of a complementing animation. Yooka just runs head first into them and they move. It would feel more proper if he held his arms out and actually pushed (it'd be silly if Laylee spread her wings and tried to help push as well).

    -The Reptile Roll. I'm talking about the idle animation. It's strange because Laylee just freezes in place, even if she's suspended in air, and if you slowly roll, she moves in slow motion. Looks off. Also, when you jump in place, Yooka rolls in midair, which also looks strange.


Unfortunately, it's pretty late for any of those changes to be made. I just hope that some of them were addressed before the game was finished, and that the animations/physics that we see/feel in the trailers/Toybox are just leftover from a previous build, a build where these final touches weren't addressed yet.

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lavamario
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby lavamario » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:17 am

Yeah the lack of animation when idled in roll form is so blatantly unpolished that I didn't even question whether it would make it into the final game or not at that time. I just figured there's no way they'd allow it. After taking in all of these unpolished details, I'm not so quick to assume so.

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Meinhard1
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Re: Anyone else find that defeating enemies feels unsatisfying?

Postby Meinhard1 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:08 am

Ultimately it will come down to polish in the right places though, right?

Yet, while I do believe they are releasing something they're very proud of, I do at times wonder if funding or kickstarter promises has led them to release the game earlier than they would have ideally preferred.
(To clarify, what I mean is how there are varying degrees to which a game game be realized through iteration and polish. Games like The Witness or Inside are examples of games taken to a fairly extreme level of realization by a comparitively small team. Of course we don't necessarily wanting Playtonic's games on a 6 year dev cycle ... just something I think about)


Anyways, I find the spin move looking a bit overly-used myself. In the multiplayer trailer I noticed two games where it appeared players mainly spun. Admittedly, it was difficult to get a sense of the flow of combat from the toybox+ alone


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