Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

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Rueckkoppler
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rueckkoppler » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:05 pm

twinspectre wrote:
Yoshi wrote:
twinspectre wrote:maybe Playtonic won't refund because they realise that the project worked thanks to the "racist" because without them Yooka laylee would never happend, and now they realise how the f****d up and they want to block people on twitter, devs putting a lock so other people that are not follower won't see their tweet all they did was spitting in the face to their fans that have different point of view and I hope the "racist" are the majority, so Playtonic should apologise for disrespecting gamers with a different point of view,
It is not very likely that far-right people are the majorit of people waiting for Yooka-Laylee. Since there is nothing inherently racist about Banjo, I'd assume the standard ~15% of the audience will be far-right people.

because We are not Animals, we are Human
All humans are animals.

with an opinion too and as such we need to be respected
Disrespecting a certain point of view does not mean disrespecting the whole human. I know there are people who conflate the whole being with their viewpoint, if it is of a specific kind (e.g. racist viewpoints), but this is not necessarily the case. However, even though it might have been a better choice had Playtonic not said anything about the initial uproar and just kept everything as it was (which I would have preferred, because the few people who knew that Jafri is a racist and cared enough for that to boycott Yooka-Laylee would have probably been miniscule), I think it is their right to ensure that people know they do not respect or share racist view points. That does not mean that people with racist viewpoints are devealued as humans alltogether, it is just that these viewpoints are valuated as what they are: vile.

Diversity my butt Playtonic, Diversity works IF YOU'RE Left wing
It largly depends on what you call diversity. Of course, adding people who are suppressing other people and clamoring for a limitation of ethnical diversity to a group that does not contain people of those opinions increases the diversity of mindsets, but it stands to question if this does not lead to a reduction of diversity in the long run, should those ideas catch on within a large enough subgroup of the original group. I believe, however, that when Playtonic said diversity, they were talking about ethnicities and racists do not form a unique ethnicity.


i'm a Human being not a Animal, if you feel an Animal this is up to You, I was born as Human Being.


Depends on whether you're more leaning towards science or towards religion (or biology vs. law): http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-humans-animals

Although that's Discovery Kids, the explanation is logical. And seriously, humans are a subgroup of animals, not a different thing. Too many similarities with existing animals.

Well, I wouldn’t say all of you dress up! But seriously, are you asking if humans are animals? If so, the answer is yes-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s!!!

Scientists describe virtually everything that is alive as animal or plant. So, if you’re not a plant then you are an animal! In fact, you are a specific kind of animal called a mammal. Know what you all have in common? Your mothers have breast milk that can feed young; you have hair or fur; and you are born live instead of inside an egg or case! In fact, human mammals are born not only alive — but kicking and screaming!

http://discoverykids.com/articles/are-h ... d-animals/

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:11 pm

Jellyfunk wrote:There are too many people attacking thoughts and not enough people attacking actions.

Opinions can change, but actions are forever. All JonTron stated were unpopular opinions.

Jontron didn't deserve this.


Platitude, a non-argument and oversimplification of things in this context.

A voiced thought or opinion steers action, they set the gears in motion.

When people vote they share their opinion, resulting in action.

Parents sharing their opinions and thoughts form the thought foundations of a child.

3.000.000 potential subscribers (at most) were listening to the opinion of someone they look up to. Playtonic wishes to actively distance themselves from that.
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Scrubber » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:38 pm

Well he didn't make it into the final game but he will go down as being the topic for the longest thread on the forums...

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rueckkoppler » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:42 pm

Scrubber wrote:Well he didn't make it into the final game but he will go down as being the topic for the longest thread on the forums...


Dammit you're right. And I thought we were even close.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yoshi » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:59 am

twinspectre wrote:i'm a Human being not a Animal, if you feel an Animal this is up to You, I was born as Human Being.
That's like saying "I'm a Wii U game, not a console game" - and also certainly not a matter of feelings.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby siggeplump » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:22 pm

Out of all people on the internet, I surprisingly found Keemstar to make the best comment on this whole situation:

"If this had been any other person who said these things, we would've crucified him."

It's very easy to jump to the defense of JonTron because he's funny and likable. There was a lot of things he said that can't be defended, yet you're tempted to rationalize it because it's coming from the mouth of someone that you have established a very positive relationship with.

I don't get why people are acting as if JonTron was this huge selling point from the get-go, when in reality he was not. I've been here since day one, and all I can remember was some flirting between JonTron and the devs over twitter, but there was never any official announcement or confirmation that any of it came to fruition until they announced he was NOT in the game.

This is definitely a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. I'm sorry Playtonic had to get caught up in it.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rueckkoppler » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:57 pm

Oh no... hurry up, we need to label bwh80 and siggeplump with terms like SJW or anti-white before their logic gets to us... ;)

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Chrysalis_Blossom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:38 pm

siggeplump wrote:Out of all people on the internet, I surprisingly found Keemstar to make the best comment on this whole situation:

"If this had been any other person who said these things, we would've crucified him."

It's very easy to jump to the defense of JonTron because he's funny and likable. There was a lot of things he said that can't be defended, yet you're tempted to rationalize it because it's coming from the mouth of someone that you have established a very positive relationship with.

I don't get why people are acting as if JonTron was this huge selling point from the get-go, when in reality he was not. I've been here since day one, and all I can remember was some flirting between JonTron and the devs over twitter, but there was never any official announcement or confirmation that any of it came to fruition until they announced he was NOT in the game.

This is definitely a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. I'm sorry Playtonic had to get caught up in it.


And this is the best comment I read on the whole situation.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Enrel » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:08 pm

I'd love for a kickstarter to be free of drama. -.-; Is that so much to ask at this point?

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:16 pm

Rueckkoppler wrote:Oh no... hurry up, we need to label bwh80 and siggeplump with terms like SJW or anti-white before their logic gets to us... ;)


Right, I've been trying to stay civil on the steam forums attempting to talk about the game to help the community managers starting an actual community only where this kind of talk you speak about doesn't even start to cover what's happening there. It's the entire angry internet against 2 community managers :/ I hope they will not be permanently damaged by the onslaught of negativity. They're heroes.

You hear that Jonno? You're a hero!

But really, don't go there unless we all go together.
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Xellos » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:48 pm

I like it that the OP made this excellent thread some hours before this whole debacle began (and is still ongoing as we speak because Playtonic stays silent), got his wish, and never came back to say thank you to Playtonic who now endures the onslaught of their pissed off customers. Thanks OP! /s

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:17 pm

Xellos wrote:I like it that the OP made this excellent thread some hours before this whole debacle began (and is still ongoing as we speak because Playtonic stays silent), got his wish, and never came back to say thank you to Playtonic who now endures the onslaught of their pissed off customers. Thanks OP! /s


I'm kind of ashamed I never even noticed the first post of the thread at all.
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:02 pm

Xellos wrote:I like it that the OP made this excellent thread some hours before this whole debacle began (and is still ongoing as we speak because Playtonic stays silent), got his wish, and never came back to say thank you to Playtonic who now endures the onslaught of their pissed off customers. Thanks OP! /s


NNI wrote:
Jimmeth of Jones wrote:Made an account just to reply to this. Grow a set and stop trying to push your politics on this game.

What politics would those be?


Honestly, and I hate to insult anyone, but I don't think the OP is very intelligent and was just trying to make an issue out of this. That or a troll, and everyone took the bait. :(
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rawk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:18 am

siggeplump wrote:It's very easy to jump to the defense of JonTron because he's funny and likable. There was a lot of things he said that can't be defended, yet you're tempted to rationalize it because it's coming from the mouth of someone that you have established a very positive relationship with.


I think JonTron is the ANTITHESIS of funny and likable. Doesn't change the fact that Playtonic used him as a vehicle between him and his fanbase and now refuses to show any confidence or transparency regarding their decision.

At this point I have no assurance whatsoever that NeoGAF couldn't cry about a misinterpreted line of dialogue (see when Zoe Quinn tried to harass Nintendo into changing the Color Splash script because she though "Five Fun Guys" was referencing her) and have Playtonic working on a patch the very next day. That's what a lack of communication with your audience does for consumer confidence, a large part of the audience in this case being the Nuts & Bolts-hating Rareware Genwunners THAT PLAYTONIC SPENT TWO YEARS VIEWING AS THEIR TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC. (Because lol if you've read the dialogue in this game and think otherwise.)

As toxic as the JonTron fanbase may be, Playtonic readily made their bed with them and wallowed in it for years. That's why for them to grovel to one side but then ignore the other entirely (not even a "We understand your frustration, but(...)we're still with you.) just makes it look like they're scared of acknowledging that they even have JonTron fans as fans in the first place and are thus pretending they have no idea how they got there. It's slimy.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rueckkoppler » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:20 am

bwh80 wrote:
Rueckkoppler wrote:Oh no... hurry up, we need to label bwh80 and siggeplump with terms like SJW or anti-white before their logic gets to us... ;)


Oh crap. I'm not one of those, am I?

:mrgreen:


I see SJW's, walking around like regular people. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're SJWs. :P

BTW, a great quote about this whole topic I really need to share:

Deguello wrote:It's been a while since I've posted on GAF, mainly due to life circumstances and such.
The last thing I posted about was.. what, one of Anita Sarkessian's videos? Man it feels like such a long time ago.

The wonderful thing about free speech is that it's a great tool for identifying people you'd rather not associate with.

JonTron used his free speech to give everybody his opinion on who should enter the American gene pool, and whether Mexicans are trying to take over California, one taco truck at a time, to reclaim the Atzlan, because that's rational.

People who heard it used their free speech to say he's woefully ignorant, a racist, and a possible eugenicist.

The makers of the game he was involved in used their free speech and freedom of association to NOT associate with JonTron.

Freedom at work!

But really, this was a long time coming to anybody paying attention at Playtonic. Anybody who followed Grant Kirkhope's Twitter knows he's left-leaning. Anti-Trump (had some choice words for him), Anti-Brexit, Pro-free immigration (no poo-poo, considering video games are a global product and Rare in the good ol' days greatly benefitted from being able to hire from anywhere in Europe) I'd imagine most of Playtonic are left-leaning, as artists tend to be. But you really don't have to be some extreme liberal to reject JonTron's view of ethnic superiority.

What's really going to eat at Jon in the future, should he be introspective of his own role in this, isn't going to be the criticism he's getting from here or liberals in Twitter or the Mainstream Media boogeyman that's ruining his career. It's not going to be all of his old friends distancing themselves from him. If these are his deepest held beliefs, it's only natural for people to disagree to grow apart. What's going to eat at him is that his childhood heroes, the developers at Rare/Playtonic, Tim Schafer, Nintendo, etc. that made his favorite games, people he got to rub shoulders with and discuss game ideas with, maybe even the possibility to work with them on a game itself, will, most likely, permanently close their doors to him. He had a shot and he blew it. Oh sure he'll still have his subscribers and his twitter following, and he'll have to spend the rest of his time in the limelight convincing himself that it's better than what he's lost. That the grapes he has are definitely sweeter than the ones he threw into the fire.

GAF and the media are blamed for this simply because they don't want to accept that Playtonic did it on their own, because they disagree that immigrants dilute gene pools, that blacks are inherently criminal, and were horrified at those comments enough to distance themselves from him before letting a game aimed somewhere around the child-teen area get released. It must be those SJWs, right? And the Frankfurt School teaming up with the Illuminati! They poisoned his heroes against him, using free speech no less!

His time in the game industry isn't completely over, I'm sure. He might get some VA work for one of the developers more friendly to his politics and his views on ethnic purity. But it will be just that. Political. A dev using him to gain access to his fans. And that's not going to be the same as working on a spiritual sequel to one of his favorite games from his childhood, is it? And considering one of Grant Kirkhope's latest tweets is laughing at somebody mocking the idea of Jon's newer fans "boycotting" the game, it's gotta feel pretty empty what he traded a future with his heroes for.

Strangely enough, I don’t think he’s beyond all hope. Even George Wallace repented for his decades of racism. But what’s going to make that outcome take longer, if at all, is his demeanor during that stream. This wasn’t him being angry at some dude cutting him off in traffic and letting an epithet slip out. That can be all of us, and it’s easy to let learned inhibitions slide in anger. No, Jon delivered his comment with clear eyes and calm voice, with the timbre and pace of studied repetition. That will take some hard thought or some extreme life event to undo, and I don’t think Boogie, who styles himself the Troubled Youtube Star whisperer, can undo it with platitudes.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.ph ... count=3924

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:38 am

I believe this guy makes a good point. Disregard the end of the video though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8u6n9Wkxd0

Slippery slope isn't always a fallacy.
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rawk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:11 am

bwh80 wrote:Confidence:
I think taking an unpopular stance against someone who has 3.1 million subscribers/supporters shows a LOT of confidence and backbone. Especially when you risk losing/alienating a lot of your market by doing so.


It could, but that possibility starts to leave the table once you try and pretend said thing never even happened and don't bother to address any part of that market in any capacity. (To that point, you're right though - it's either no confidence or way too much confidence at the cost of basic company ethics.)

bwh80 wrote:How is that NOT transparent?


The timing made many see it as a knee-jerk kowtow to one site in particular as opposed to something well-thought out and considerate of the greater fanbase. There's nothing transparent about that statement when their refusal to acknowledge it in the six days following has people honestly wondering if actual Playtonic employees were even behind the decision in the first place. ...Which isn't unbelievable given the stark contrast between such a forceful repudiation and the...literal nothing that has come since.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Taylor » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:47 am

One thing I'd add to this ongoing discussion is that I think it's unfair to lump all of Team17 and the moderation team (including me; however, I am not part of Team17) in with Playtonic. In my view, we are separate entities. It's Playtonic, mostly the ex-Rare staff, that made the game over two years; it was Team17 who came under fire for being 'rude' to JonTron fans and 'silencing' Steam forum members. As the publisher, I think Team17 are the ones who carry out a lot of the PR things (although admittedly I'm not entirely sure how the work is split). Playtonic themselves are pretty busy creating the actual game.

Personally I have absolutely no affiliation with Playtonic; my sole purpose is to moderate the forums and keep things neat and tidy, and I do this for free as a hobby because I love the game and company. I've been quoted telling people how they might be able to get a refund, to help the best I could, but also giving my opinion that I don't think they should receive one under these circumstances. As a member here, I am allowed to state my opinions just like everybody else, providing I follow the forum rules. People have also made a big deal about me locking threads, which I still don't understand as there was nothing else to add in those topics that hadn't been said -- I gave advice on how to contact Playtonic directly to discuss refunds. These forums are not the place to make multiple refund requests.

I can see why some people are angry/upset (some JonTron fans and some just upset with the whole 'political' side), but I do think a few people may be jumping to conclusions and overreacting, especially the ones that are flaming and being extremely offensive to others...

Anyway, I am going to continue moderating how I always have done.
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:52 am

Taylor wrote:One thing I'd add to this ongoing discussion is that I think it's unfair to lump all of Team17 and the moderation team (including me; however, I am not part of Team17) in with Playtonic. In my view, we are separate entities. It's Playtonic, mostly the ex-Rare staff, that made the game over two years; it was Team17 who came under fire for being 'rude' to JonTron fans and 'silencing' Steam forum members. As the publisher, I think Team17 are the ones who carry out a lot of the PR things (although admittedly I'm not entirely sure how the work is split). Playtonic themselves are pretty busy creating the actual game.

Personally I have absolutely no affiliation with Playtonic; my sole purpose is to moderate the forums and keep things neat and tidy, and I do this for free as a hobby because I love the game and company. I've been quoted telling people how they might be able to get a refund, to help the best I could, but also giving my opinion that I don't think they should receive one under these circumstances. As a member here, I am allowed to state my opinions just like everybody else, providing I follow the forum rules. People have also made a big deal about me locking threads, which I still don't understand as there was nothing else to add in those topics that hadn't been said -- I gave advice on how to contact Playtonic directly to discuss refunds. These forums are not the place to make multiple refund requests.

I can see why some people are angry/upset (some JonTron fans and some just upset with the whole 'political' side), but I do think a few people may be jumping to conclusions and overreacting, especially the ones that are flaming and being extremely offensive to others...

Anyway, I am going to continue moderating how I always have done.


I think you are doing great and sometimes I could even feel that you had to withhold yourself from doing anything that would be because out of an emotion, you seem to handle all of this very professionally and collected and you're wearing 2 caps basically. So that says a lot about you to me personally, what are you... 22? I could learn a thing of 5 from you. Keep the good job up, for real. It's awesome.

Yeah... this Jonno person from Team 17 who is actively moderating the Steam Forum as we speak is being attacked from every angle possible by a bunch of lowlifes and he really tries to not give in to any temptations but he still talks with all of the members as well. Awesome. Those attackers don't hold a grain of respect for the man considering the whole situation. That seems to say a lot about the active people who disagree there, is disagreeing even the right word? Whatever, they're a bunch of mobbing pussies.

So then I keep seeing this SJW word, "Social Justice Warrior" a word that doesn't even sound negative to me, what is wrong for wanting to do battle for keeping the right order? Then I went ahead and search for the definition of the term... Now I think this SJW word really seems to be used by a lot of people who have no idea what the hell they are saying. What a stupid definition of the word, who made that up?
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:36 am

Yavga wrote:Yeah... this Jonno person from Team 17 who is actively moderating the Steam Forum as we speak is being attacked from every angle possible by a bunch of lowlifes and he really tries to not give in to any temptations but he still talks with all of the members as well. Awesome. Those attackers don't hold a grain of respect for the man considering the whole situation. That seems to say a lot about the active people who disagree there, is disagreeing even the right word? Whatever, they're a bunch of mobbing pussies.


I can tell with this paragraph you don't understand how upset people are about this and exactly why they're upset, and why they get more upset when they get banned and silenced from the forums, but unfortunately I have no interest in retreading this discussion. Slippery Slope isn't always a fallacy.

Yavga wrote:So then I keep seeing this SJW word, "Social Justice Warrior" a word that doesn't even sound negative to me, what is wrong for wanting to do battle for keeping the right order? Then I went ahead and search for the definition of the term... Now I think this SJW word really seems to be used by a lot of people who have no idea what the hell they are saying. What a stupid definition of the word, who made that up?


The definition of SJW is typically used as a derogatory word, mainly because what SJWs (by the definition's wording) promote sounds great, but isn't exactly what it is. Just like feminism, which mainly pertains to third wave feminism. I'm sure you've heard of Anita Sarkeesian and the ridiculous crap she has said. I, and many other people I'm sure, feel it's unnecessary to have to promote diversity and accept people of different ethnicities and culture. I don't put people into categories of race or gender and I typically don't think about it, but SJWs tend to want to always bring it up because I'm assuming they believe there is oppression. And while there is oppression, it doesn't exist in first world countries, but for some reason they don't seem to see that. This goes along with virtue signaling, which I absolutely hate, and it's all over the place. Unfortunately I can't help but agree with people that that is what Playtonic did by saying they "celebrates diversity in all forms." I'm sorry, what company doesn't do that?
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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