Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yoshi » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:41 am

@Taylor: I would suggest just one thing to give a better contrast, which I typically do when moderating a forum: Separate personal opinion posts and moderation acts. So, if need be, make one posting where you give your personal advice, and then immediately afterwards, make a moderation posting, where you say why you close the thread.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:43 am

Savage Rodent wrote:
Yavga wrote:Yeah... this Jonno person from Team 17 who is actively moderating the Steam Forum as we speak is being attacked from every angle possible by a bunch of lowlifes and he really tries to not give in to any temptations but he still talks with all of the members as well. Awesome. Those attackers don't hold a grain of respect for the man considering the whole situation. That seems to say a lot about the active people who disagree there, is disagreeing even the right word? Whatever, they're a bunch of mobbing pussies.


I can tell with this paragraph you don't understand how upset people are about this and exactly why they're upset, and why they get more upset when they get banned and silenced from the forums, but unfortunately I have no interest in retreading this discussion. Slippery Slope isn't always a fallacy.

Yavga wrote:So then I keep seeing this SJW word, "Social Justice Warrior" a word that doesn't even sound negative to me, what is wrong for wanting to do battle for keeping the right order? Then I went ahead and search for the definition of the term... Now I think this SJW word really seems to be used by a lot of people who have no idea what the hell they are saying. What a stupid definition of the word, who made that up?


The definition of SJW is typically used as a derogatory word, mainly because what SJWs (by the definition's wording) promote sounds great, but isn't exactly what it is. Just like feminism, which mainly pertains to third wave feminism. I'm sure you've heard of Anita Sarkeesian and the ridiculous crap she has said. I, and many other people I'm sure, feel it's unnecessary to have to promote diversity and accept people of different ethnicities and culture. I don't put people into categories of race or gender and I typically don't think about it, but SJWs tend to want to always bring it up because I'm assuming they believe there is oppression. And while there is oppression, it doesn't exist in first world countries, but for some reason they don't seem to see that. This goes along with virtue signaling, which I absolutely hate, and it's all over the place. Unfortunately I can't help but agree with people that that is what Playtonic did by saying they "celebrates diversity in all forms." I'm sorry, what company doesn't do that?


Thanks for explaining that!

Real quick on the first paragraph. I actually just learned to understand a large portion was about Refunds not being honored, I missed that argument but I can understand why that seems a problem. I decided I will withold myself from further political views as they are different per person anyway. It's a never ending loop anyway. So...

I posted this over at the Steam forum:

"About the refunds, I don't know enough about the way it works with Kickstarter but I always presumed I was "donating" the money to the realization of a project. Are they supposed to give the money back?

Well you could argue that things have changed from their initial promises like the Wii U exclusion was a sufficient reason for refunds.

But did Playtonic make notice of the inclusion through its' Kickstarter? If they did I can understand more people are willing to support their cause counting as marketing in a way so... I have to sympathize with your refund in the case they decide to remove it! Yes! But only if it was one of the initial promises! Because that is what you supported them for"
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby ShanPen » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:05 am

Savage Rodent wrote: I don't put people into categories of race or gender and I typically don't think about it, but SJWs tend to want to always bring it up because I'm assuming they believe there is oppression. And while there is oppression, it doesn't exist in first world countries, but for some reason they don't seem to see that.


Except it does still exist in developed countries. Sure black people aren't lynched by mobs anymore or women aren't stoned to death in the streets, but that doesn't mean there isn't oppression. People from minority groups tell you it happens to them all the time - are you calling them liars just because it doesn't happen to you or you don't see it happen? How condescending.

I can tell you as a woman working in a male dominated industry that several times clients have outright discriminated against the women at my work saying they don't want a woman working on their project because "Women and technology don't mix" - those were actual words used by clients (though there have been variations as it has happened multiple times) who didn't even know the women in question or anything about their skill sets (because if they did, they'd know they missed out on some of the best because one lady in particular was one of the best operators in the company), they just presumed the women would be rubbish - how much more blatant can you get than that? And that's not just a case of shrugging it off and saying "sticks and stones" - that means we then don't get shifts and so get less money purely because someone holds sexist views. Not to mention all the little things that you just have to internally laugh and roll your eyes about, like where the client will shake the hand of all the guys on the team, yet not give a hand shake or even any eye contact to the women - but I guess we're just being "too sensitive" or making it up :roll:. If we were "too sensitive" and "got offended" at every little comment, we wouldn't have even made it into the industry, yet alone stuck with it.
You know what I noticed about a lot of the people over at that NeoGaff board when I went over there to read the thread to get more perspective? That a lot of them were people of colour (or had family members who were) - people who were actually hurt by the ideals Jon was spouting because they live the reality of people treating them differently every day, that's why they were so upset. It wasn't because they have nothing better to do than "get offended at everything". But hey, you must know more about their life experiences than they do, seeing as though you're acting like the world expert on who and when people are oppressed. :roll:

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yoshi » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:20 pm

Regrding the story about discrimination of women in technology, I had a funny encounter at a course I was responsible for. A woman who was taking the course was asking me, which additional exercise groups she could visit to repeat the content some more. It seemed a bit strange to me that she was visiting the same course several times, but I told her about all other groups. Turned out she already visited all groups given by men, but not those by women. She concluded she cannot visit any additional courses then, because "women cannot comprehend math". I think this was in particular funny, because my boss (who definitely is better than me and all my student tutors at the content of the course and math in general) is a woman and the student stating women cannot comprehend math was a woman herself...

In NeoGAF, there are some people who are making huge issues out of almost nothing, but to state on the other hand that discrimination does not happen is just not right either.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Xellos » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:19 pm

bwh80 wrote:I think debate/discussion is healthy.


Yeah, until things start to escalate and a mod needs to step in before it erupts into a flame war.

bwh80 wrote:Who knows, maybe some people might actually LEARN something by reading it. Although, not the OP obviously.


What you should be asking yourself is not whether that "some people might actually learn something if they read this thread," but if they are going to CHANGE their pre-existing viewpoint after reading it.

bwh80 wrote:Besides, what else are you gonna do? Squash it and be accused of censorship?


Not sure where you got the idea from that I'm intending to lock this thread, but the answer is no.

bwh80 wrote:Also, at least it's keeping the discussion to (mostly) one thread. Rather than having topic, after topic, after topic, spread throughout the forum.


You don't say?

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:52 pm

ShanPen wrote:Except it does still exist in developed countries. Sure black people aren't lynched by mobs anymore or women aren't stoned to death in the streets, but that doesn't mean there isn't oppression. People from minority groups tell you it happens to them all the time - are you calling them liars just because it doesn't happen to you or you don't see it happen? How condescending.

I can tell you as a woman working in a male dominated industry that several times clients have outright discriminated against the women at my work saying they don't want a woman working on their project because "Women and technology don't mix" - those were actual words used by clients (though there have been variations as it has happened multiple times) who didn't even know the women in question or anything about their skill sets (because if they did, they'd know they missed out on some of the best because one lady in particular was one of the best operators in the company), they just presumed the women would be rubbish - how much more blatant can you get than that? And that's not just a case of shrugging it off and saying "sticks and stones" - that means we then don't get shifts and so get less money purely because someone holds sexist views. Not to mention all the little things that you just have to internally laugh and roll your eyes about, like where the client will shake the hand of all the guys on the team, yet not give a hand shake or even any eye contact to the women - but I guess we're just being "too sensitive" or making it up :roll:. If we were "too sensitive" and "got offended" at every little comment, we wouldn't have even made it into the industry, yet alone stuck with it.
You know what I noticed about a lot of the people over at that NeoGaff board when I went over there to read the thread to get more perspective? That a lot of them were people of colour (or had family members who were) - people who were actually hurt by the ideals Jon was spouting because they live the reality of people treating them differently every day, that's why they were so upset. It wasn't because they have nothing better to do than "get offended at everything". But hey, you must know more about their life experiences than they do, seeing as though you're acting like the world expert on who and when people are oppressed. :roll:


Yeah, I'm sure it happens to them all the time. Don't know how you found out the people over at NeoGaff were people of color, but do you not think white males get discriminated or harassed at all? Tell that to all of these sites saying it's okay to hate white people and that you can't be racist towards white people. Or how about Mtv's "What white men can do better in 2017." Give me a break. And here is a thought, the homeless population, at least here in America, consists at least 75% of males. Also, men are treated unfairly in court compared to the woman, and I know this both from stories and experience. And please, understand the difference between oppression and discrimination.
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Gorjo » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:56 pm

Can mountains be friends?

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Pgcrooner » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:45 pm

Gorjo wrote:Can mountains be friends?


no....no they can not :'(

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:28 am

Gorjo wrote:Can mountains be friends?


Twin peaks... sorry
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Robobvious » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:20 am

So I know I'm late to the party on this but I only recently heard about it and decided I wanted to get my two cents in before the game comes out. While I don't agree with Jon's views at all, I do think it was pretty screwed up that they fired him over it. If Playtonic was based in America I actually think they would be legally culpable for infringing on his freedom of speech (unless they explicitly made him agree not to do as he did in a formal contract), but since they're not they're off the hook in that department.

I don't know, just seems like an overreaction on their part in that nobody is gonna go "Omg! Yooka-Laylee is rascist you guys!" because one guy who's tangentially related to its development kind of is. The truth is all big games are made by teams, teams with vastly different cultural, religious, and political beliefs. And just because one of the voice actors turned out to be bigoted doesn't mean the game is going to reflect that in any way. We know that.

Ultimately I feel it was a move motivated by political correctness and being "safe", and while it's sad that those are the views he keeps, he absolutely has a right to them. Thinking that we as the consumers can't tell the difference between the personal views of one employee and the official position of a multi-million dollar company is fairly insulting to our intelligence in my opinion.

Regardless, I look forward to the game. I don't want a refund and I'm not gonna start shouting boycott like the fanboys who stormed the steam discussion boards, truth is I think it will be a lot of fun. I just wish Playtonic had handled what happened a little bit differently, that's all.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:19 am

Robobvious wrote:
Regardless, I look forward to the game, truth is I think it will be a lot of fun. I just wish Playtonic had handled what happened a little bit differently, that's all.


Truly, this would've have been the most ideal oucome right here. Have a cookie.
You voiced your opinion and keep it at that, if everybody would have done the same... the outcome would still be Playtonic knowing people were dissapointed over these decisions and perhaps they would have addressed the situation more willingly.

This the average opinion of all people involved with the game combined as one. I know, an oversimplification. But you can't deny it works better than what's still happening over at the Steam forums.

the pure "anger" people have been showing only shows their own biasedness in the matter anyway. Anger doesn't solve a problem.
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Xellos » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:13 am

bwh80 wrote:Perhaps you might want to go back and re-read my post and understand my PoV, rather than just taking umbrage at what side you THINK I might be taking.


I already understand what your PoV is (which is that you agree on JonTron's removal from Y-L), and I couldn't care less about it. Perhaps you need to reconsider your decision to engage me with this pointless argument of yours.

One last thing, if an admin wishes that this thread needs to be locked, you better believe it gets closed and no amount of whining about "censorship" will change that.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:54 pm

*pewpew* shots were fired. Luckily we have bulletproof vests. Right... RIGHT?!?!
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby ShanPen » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:40 pm

Savage Rodent wrote:Yeah, I'm sure it happens to them all the time. Don't know how you found out the people over at NeoGaff were people of color, but do you not think white males get discriminated or harassed at all? Tell that to all of these sites saying it's okay to hate white people and that you can't be racist towards white people. Or how about Mtv's "What white men can do better in 2017." Give me a break. And here is a thought, the homeless population, at least here in America, consists at least 75% of males. Also, men are treated unfairly in court compared to the woman, and I know this both from stories and experience. And please, understand the difference between oppression and discrimination.


Oppression is being subjected to systematic, ingrained discrimination and power imbalance. Having to fight against a system that's rigged against you so the type of people who have always been in power, stay there. Just because some white men have a terrible life or fall on bad times, that doesn't negate all other oppression. And if you're meaning custody battles over children in court, I know women often come out better, but that stems from the sexist idea that women are naturally more nurturing and that child rearing is the "woman's job", which is something I do not agree with. My father chose not to have any permanent access to his kids because he just wanted to spend all his time earning money, so I think if both parties are good parents (ie. not abusive/on drugs/putting the kids in danger etc) and the father wants to be involved with his children after a separation/divorce that his kids are very lucky and he should absolutely have equal rights to that because it's best for everyone. And that's about all the energy I'm willing to put into this thread, because you obviously have very set opinions on things and I have mine, and I doubt either of us is going to see eye to eye. So I'm going to go back to the rest of the forum and concentrate on being excited about Yooka-Laylee.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Gorjo » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:15 pm

I miss Rockington.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:50 pm

bwh80 wrote:Bye everyone. Seems I am about to be banned. :(


You're still here, you'll be alright. Just hug if uncertain.
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:27 pm

bwh80 wrote:.


Miscommunication is difficult, I think we are all a bit fed up with the whole ordeal. It's
no one's fault. Sorry to see you leave :(
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rueckkoppler » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:48 pm

bwh80 wrote:Nevermind, I'm just gonna leave on my own volition.

Take care all.


I understood where you were coming from, though. Props for being a good sport about it (you're probably one of the last persons that is about to get banned, but anyways...), it's hard to have some kind of discussions nowadays on the internet that don't get on a personal level (and you shouldn't feel that way). You're always free to stay and (also) take part in some rather lighthearted discussions :)

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:10 pm

I hate to give this thread some life, but I found out that Manveer Heir, the openly racist guy that worked at Bioware, wasn't fired and instead left the company. https://imgoat.com/uploads/9f0f895fb9/7490.png

So I guess I'm a little more upset about Jon's work being removed now. And it's just like what Jon said, nobody is getting fired over racism against white people. The unbelievable double standard that is going on is ridiculous.
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:24 pm

Savage Rodent wrote:I hate to give this thread some life, but I found out that Manveer Heir, the openly racist guy that worked at Bioware, wasn't fired and instead left the company. https://imgoat.com/uploads/9f0f895fb9/7490.png

So I guess I'm a little more upset about Jon's work being removed now. And it's just like what Jon said, nobody is getting fired over racism against white people. The unbelievable double standard that is going on is ridiculous.


Yeah that's ok. I don't see that changing anything at all but I get where you're coming from :p let's leave it... there....
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