Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

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Savage Rodent
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:46 am

Alph wrote:What's the difference between Playtonic never collaborating with Jontron again and them not collaborating with him in the final version of Yooka-Laylee? The end result is just that Jontron's involvement is excluded from one extra game. It's not some huge political action, it's just them releasing a product without Jontron in it


The thing here is Playtonic are going out of their way to remove his voice from the game. It will be done in a patch. This is being done as if it's a big deal.

If they wanted to disassociate themselves from Jon, that's fine. However, when you make a statement about accepting "diversity of all forms" after just excluding someone because of their views, then you're being a hypocrite.
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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DiverseOpinions
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby DiverseOpinions » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:49 am

Savage Rodent wrote:
Alph wrote:What's the difference between Playtonic never collaborating with Jontron again and them not collaborating with him in the final version of Yooka-Laylee? The end result is just that Jontron's involvement is excluded from one extra game. It's not some huge political action, it's just them releasing a product without Jontron in it


The thing here is Playtonic are going out of their way to remove his voice from the game. It will be done in a patch. This is being done as if it's a big deal.

If they wanted to disassociate themselves from Jon, that's fine. However, when you make a statement about accepting "diversity of all forms" after just excluding someone because of their views, then you're being a hypocrite.


It's not about that though Savage Rodent, Alph said so. I mean he gave no context to his statements, but we should listen to everything he said because I mean he said it.

Everyone knows all you have to do is saying "This has nothing to do with..." and you're automatically 100% right.

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ryanator008
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby ryanator008 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:06 am

ShanPen wrote:
ryanator008 wrote:
Yoshi wrote:Everyone I disagree with is stupid or a cultist. Also they're all dudes, except the ones that aren't.

And you wonder why people are so upset about SJWs.


That is not a direct quote from Yoshi at all. You might have summed up Yoshi's argument as that, but using the forum's quote feature to make it look like Yoshi said those exact words is pretty poor form.

I've seen it done on other forums. No, I wasn't trying to make up a quote. I was trying to say that his post was filled with fluff and the only things he actually said were pretty out-there.

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Alph
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Alph » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:11 am

Savage Rodent wrote:
Alph wrote:What's the difference between Playtonic never collaborating with Jontron again and them not collaborating with him in the final version of Yooka-Laylee? The end result is just that Jontron's involvement is excluded from one extra game. It's not some huge political action, it's just them releasing a product without Jontron in it


The thing here is Playtonic are going out of their way to remove his voice from the game. It will be done in a patch. This is being done as if it's a big deal.

If they wanted to disassociate themselves from Jon, that's fine. However, when you make a statement about accepting "diversity of all forms" after just excluding someone because of their views, then you're being a hypocrite.


They went out of their way to put him in the game in the first place, the patch is just undoing the efforts they took upon themselves. Ultimately it's still just them deciding what content they want to release in the final version of the game.

And they clearly were referring to cultural and racial diversity, as that is what Jontron's statements were about. Jontron said that black people are intrinsically inferior and that ethnic diversity is a bad thing. Playtonic thinks all races are intrinsically equal and that ethnic diversity is a good thing. That's literally all their statement was meant to convey.


DiverseOpinions wrote:It's not about that though Savage Rodent, Alph said so. I mean he gave no context to his statements, but we should listen to everything he said because I mean he said it.

Everyone knows all you have to do is saying "This has nothing to do with..." and you're automatically 100% right.


Maybe you could state why you think it relates to free speech, instead of just saying that "it's about the principle".

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DiverseOpinions
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby DiverseOpinions » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:20 am

ryanator008 wrote:
ShanPen wrote:
ryanator008 wrote:And you wonder why people are so upset about SJWs.


That is not a direct quote from Yoshi at all. You might have summed up Yoshi's argument as that, but using the forum's quote feature to make it look like Yoshi said those exact words is pretty poor form.

I've seen it done on other forums. No, I wasn't trying to make up a quote. I was trying to say that his post was filled with fluff and the only things he actually said were pretty out-there.


Well when your only source of news is websites like buzzfeed or the washington post, then you eventually start typing like a manipulator. Hide the key messages in paragraphs of fluff instead of saying what you mean outright!

Alph wrote:And they clearly were referring to cultural and racial diversity, as that is what Jontron's statements were about. Jontron said that black people are intrincisally inferior and that ethnic diversity is a bad thing. Playtonic thinks all races are intrinsically equal and that ethnic diversity is a good thing. That's literally all their statement was meant to convey.


Did you actually watch the video of the debate or are you using twisted words from your favorite clickbait article? I love how you can easily just slander someone's character without a thought and not have actual evidence to back up your claims.


Alph wrote:Maybe you could state why you think it relates to free speech, instead of just saying that "it's about the principle".


That's a great deflection on what I said, but sure. I mean you're even saying that it's not a big deal to remove him, but why was it a big deal in the first place? It's strange that you keep flip flopping between it's not a big deal to them having to "go out of their way" to have included him in the first place. Listen, all I'm saying is that condemning a person by releasing a statement against JT when the company could've remained apolitical is them making a statement on free speech. Whether you see it or not, them removing him from the project for speaking his mind is a statement on how they feel about free speech. Not only that, but they silence anybody on steam forums, this forum, etc. who are simply asking for a refund on the grounds they didn't agree with Playtonic as a company. Of course though, that doesn't matter because they got your money and you have to deal with it.

You'd think everyone would've learned after MN.9, but I guess shady devs are gonna keep pushing for kickstarter projects as a means of funding the game. All I can do is warn people about supporting them from now on.

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Alph
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Alph » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:32 am

Now I think you are just looking for things to be mad about rather than just looking at the intentions behind everything that's happened.

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DiverseOpinions
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby DiverseOpinions » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:38 am

Alph wrote:Now I think you are just looking for things to be mad about rather than just looking at the intentions behind everything that's happened.


I really don't like how you keep telling me to give context and not giving context to any of your claims. I don't care what you think anymore.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Yavga » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:44 am

DiverseOpinions wrote:
Alph wrote:Now I think you are just looking for things to be mad about rather than just looking at the intentions behind everything that's happened.


I really don't like how you keep telling me to give context and not giving context to any of your claims. I don't care what you think anymore.


For cupcake sake Alph, you made him cry! Was that really neccesary?
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FloorSausage
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby FloorSausage » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:53 am

Being from the UK, I don't feel strongly towards and would rather not say anything about American politics when it has nothing to do with me and I'm not particularly knowledgeable in regards towards said subject regardless of region.
I'd say I'm neutral on the decision on Jon's removal as I do like him, in regards to his Youtube content anyway and I believe Playtonic can have whoever they want in or out of their game.
I don't agree with their decision based on their statement and I feel they need to talk up as soon as possible, however I understand that it is the weekend and that could be a good reason as to why they haven't said anything yet.

For all we know they could have a change of heart and reverse the decision to remove Jon next week.
Surely they know staying silent isn't a good option but they haven't had much time to say anything other than make some copy/paste posts showing off backer rewards.

Team 17's community manager is certainly not helping matters by causing a ruckus on Twitter and Steam by being unprofessional making snide comments, deleting Steam forum posts and banning users (I must admit there are some proper idiots kicking about the forums who do deserve bans but there are certainly some undeserved ones). Also not helping is people taking the Yooka-Laylee forum moderator's views in regards to refunds and claiming that they are quotes from Playtonic themselves, other than the decision to remove Jon I haven't seen any evidence to say that Playtonic has done anything else that is particularly bad or wrong.

If Playtonic don't reverse their decision or make another statement that I and others are satisfied with then nothing will change for me personally, I'll pick up a physical copy on PS4 and not patch it just to check out JonTron (people who feel the same or are claiming he should be patched in should remember that they said they will patch him out so as long as you don't patch you'll still have Jon in the game, bear in mind people will obviously mod him in on PC). If you don't want to buy because of Playtonic's decision then thats fine in my opinion, if you want a refund then thats fair game in my book although if it were me I'd wait and see if and what they have to say in response to this debacle first. You are also good to decide against purchasing or decide to seek a refund based on Team 17's (at least the community manager's) actions.

If Playtonic removed Jon because people moaned at them until he was removed then people are good to turn up the heat for them doing so as people clearly want him in the game and we the consumers should be allowed to voice our opinion just like the USA did when New Coke was introduced and the UK when Coca Cola released Dasani.

Rightly so cause New Coke and Dasani were a pile of shite.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby PurpleFyrus » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:09 am

FloorSausage wrote:Rightly so cause New Coke and Dasani were a pile of shite.


U WOT M8?!!!???

I LOVE DASANI!!

*triggered

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Rueckkoppler » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:23 am

DiverseOpinions wrote:You'd think everyone would've learned after MN.9, but I guess shady devs are gonna keep pushing for kickstarter projects as a means of funding the game. All I can do is warn people about supporting them from now on.


No sh*t, they used Kickstarter for funding a game? And the game even looks like garbage! They clearly ran off with the money and delivered not in the slightest, these sneaky people!

DiverseOpinions wrote:Listen, all I'm saying is that condemning a person by releasing a statement against JT when the company could've remained apolitical is them making a statement on free speech. Whether you see it or not, them removing him from the project for speaking his mind is a statement on how they feel about free speech.


Really? Since when is a video game a platform that needs to include anyone who wants to blow out his ideologies? Don't we have YouTube for that?

DiverseOpinions wrote:Not only that, but they silence anybody on steam forums, this forum, etc. who are simply asking for a refund on the grounds they didn't agree with Playtonic as a company. Of course though, that doesn't matter because they got your money and you have to deal with it.


Then why are you still here then? Can't you at least try and pretend to be blocked in order to prove your point?

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby FloorSausage » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:32 am

PurpleFyrus wrote:
FloorSausage wrote:Rightly so cause New Coke and Dasani were a pile of shite.


U WOT M8?!!!???

I LOVE DASANI!!

*triggered

Should clarify, Dasani in the UK was bottled tap water that contained a concentration of bromate which is harmful if consumed in large quantities.

Didn't help that Coca Cola referred to it as "Spunk" AKA man-juice, jizz, semen.
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby PurpleFyrus » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:39 am

FloorSausage wrote:
PurpleFyrus wrote:
FloorSausage wrote:Rightly so cause New Coke and Dasani were a pile of shite.


U WOT M8?!!!???

I LOVE DASANI!!

*triggered

Should clarify, Dasani in the UK was bottled tap water that contained a concentration of bromate which is harmful if consumed in large quantities.

Didn't help that Coca Cola referred to it as "Spunk" AKA man-juice, jizz, semen.
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ah, Dasani in the U.S. (california at least) was good, but never heard it called "Spunk" before lol

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:57 am

Alph wrote:They went out of their way to put him in the game in the first place, the patch is just undoing the efforts they took upon themselves.


I'm glad you know 100% that they went out of their way to put him in. I wonder if they did that with their other voice actors as well? Speaking of their other voice actors, I wonder if they hold the same viewpoints as Jon? I'm sure they don't care enough to find out since they aren't being pressured to research them.

Alph wrote:And they clearly were referring to cultural and racial diversity, as that is what Jontron's statements were about. Jontron said that black people are intrinsically inferior and that ethnic diversity is a bad thing. Playtonic thinks all races are intrinsically equal and that ethnic diversity is a good thing. That's literally all their statement was meant to convey.


So everyone is suppose to assume what they said now? It wasn't clearly referring to cultural and racial diversity, especially when they tag on "of all forms." You aren't looking at the words that are said and are just assuming what they mean. Too bad people couldn't do that for Jon.
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby GeneralWalnut » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:45 am

Real quick, the couple of people kicking up a tantrum still, you were probably just as outraged when Nintendo fired Alison Rapp, right? You know, since it is just the principal of thing, it would be hypocritical of you to not be just as upset when somebody you don't agree with gets let go under very similar circumstances. I bet you all have boycotted Nintendo's games because of it and haven't bought one since. Surely that is the case and you aren't actually just mad that the people who made a game you love from your childhood not only don't share or endorse your prejudices but would probably not like you very much as people.

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Alph » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:37 am

Savage Rodent wrote:I'm glad you know 100% that they went out of their way to put him in. I wonder if they did that with their other voice actors as well? Speaking of their other voice actors, I wonder if they hold the same viewpoints as Jon? I'm sure they don't care enough to find out since they aren't being pressured to research them.


The other voices are most likely provided by the people who are already working on the game, as was typical of Rare games, whereas they would have had to actively coordinate with Jontron in order to get recordings from him. And none of the other voice actors are youtube celebrities who have intentionally put themselves in the public eye, unlike Jontron.

But let's be clear here: all they did was add a bunch of garbled grunts and then patch in a new set of garbled grunts. The effort in either case is minimal. They added Jontron strictly as a friendly gesture and now they are revoking that gesture, simple as that.

Savage Rodent wrote:So everyone is suppose to assume what they said now? It wasn't clearly referring to cultural and racial diversity, especially when they tag on "of all forms." You aren't looking at the words that are said and are just assuming what they mean. Too bad people couldn't do that for Jon.


I'm assuming what they meant based on the context. The subject at hand was racial and cultural diversity. "Of all forms" means all forms of racial and cultural diversity. Do you believe that they meant to convey that they celebrate all ideologies, no matter how violent, hate-filled, or atrocious? There's no logical reason to think that they were talking about that.

What do you think Jontron meant? More importantly, what do you think Playtonic thought Jontron meant? What kind of viewpoint do you think Playtonic is being intolerant toward?

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Pgcrooner » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:59 am

GeneralWalnut wrote:Real quick, the couple of people kicking up a tantrum still, you were probably just as outraged when Nintendo fired Alison Rapp, right? You know, since it is just the principal of thing, it would be hypocritical of you to not be just as upset when somebody you don't agree with gets let go under very similar circumstances. I bet you all have boycotted Nintendo's games because of it and haven't bought one since. Surely that is the case and you aren't actually just mad that the people who made a game you love from your childhood not only don't share or endorse your prejudices but would probably not like you very much as people.


-I may be mistaken, but wasn't that due to her second job as a model and (alleged) personal escort and not her political views?

-There is also murky contentions about whether or not nintendo is for or against moonlighting.

-You could make the argument that nintendo caved to pressure from detractors of Allison though.

I haven't looked into it well enough. I'll have to dig further.

GeneralWalnut
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby GeneralWalnut » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:13 am

Pgcrooner wrote:
GeneralWalnut wrote:Real quick, the couple of people kicking up a tantrum still, you were probably just as outraged when Nintendo fired Alison Rapp, right? You know, since it is just the principal of thing, it would be hypocritical of you to not be just as upset when somebody you don't agree with gets let go under very similar circumstances. I bet you all have boycotted Nintendo's games because of it and haven't bought one since. Surely that is the case and you aren't actually just mad that the people who made a game you love from your childhood not only don't share or endorse your prejudices but would probably not like you very much as people.


-I may be mistaken, but wasn't that due to her second job as a personal escort and not her political views?

-There is also murky contentions about whether or not nintendo is for or against moonlighting.

-You could make the argument that nintendo caved to pressure from detractors of Allison though.

I haven't looked into it well enough though.

It was actually just modeling and under an alias, 100% unrelated to her work at Nintendo (coupled with current/former Nintendo employees confirming that while Nintendo doesn't officially allow moonlighting it is common practice and that this is maybe the sole instance where it has resulted in a termination).

People also dug up her college thesis, which was about how different cultures dealt with pedophilia, and used it to bombard Nintendo with the accusation of her being a pedophile. I don't pretend to know how she actually feels on the subject, but somebody getting fired, even in part, for their views they didn't make public that were 100% unrelated to her employer???? Surely those outraged by this jon tron nonsense are foaming at the mouth reading this, furious at the injustice of it. After all, it is about principle, no?

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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Pgcrooner » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:18 am

GeneralWalnut wrote:
Pgcrooner wrote:
GeneralWalnut wrote:Real quick, the couple of people kicking up a tantrum still, you were probably just as outraged when Nintendo fired Alison Rapp, right? You know, since it is just the principal of thing, it would be hypocritical of you to not be just as upset when somebody you don't agree with gets let go under very similar circumstances. I bet you all have boycotted Nintendo's games because of it and haven't bought one since. Surely that is the case and you aren't actually just mad that the people who made a game you love from your childhood not only don't share or endorse your prejudices but would probably not like you very much as people.


-I may be mistaken, but wasn't that due to her second job as a personal escort and not her political views?

-There is also murky contentions about whether or not nintendo is for or against moonlighting.

-You could make the argument that nintendo caved to pressure from detractors of Allison though.

I haven't looked into it well enough though.

It was actually just modeling and under an alias, 100% unrelated to her work at Nintendo (coupled with current/former Nintendo employees confirming that while Nintendo doesn't officially allow moonlighting it is common practice and that this is maybe the sole instance where it has resulted in a termination).

People also dug up her college thesis, which was about how different cultures dealt with pedophilia, and used it to bombard Nintendo with the accusation of her being a pedophile. I don't pretend to know how she actually feels on the subject, but somebody getting fired, even in part, for their views they didn't make public that were 100% unrelated to her employer???? Surely those outraged by this jon tron nonsense are foaming at the mouth reading this, furious at the injustice of it. After all, it is about principle, no?


Wow that sounds horrible. :(

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Savage Rodent
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Re: Jon Jafari (JonTron) and his role in Yooka-Laylee

Postby Savage Rodent » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:48 am

Alph wrote:I'm assuming what they meant based on the context. The subject at hand was racial and cultural diversity. "Of all forms" means all forms of racial and cultural diversity. Do you believe that they meant to convey that they celebrate all ideologies, no matter how violent, hate-filled, or atrocious? There's no logical reason to think that they were talking about that.


I can say the same for Jon. And what do you know, he actually doesn't think like a racist.

Alph wrote:What do you think Jontron meant? More importantly, what do you think Playtonic thought Jontron meant? What kind of viewpoint do you think Playtonic is being intolerant toward?


I think he meant what he meant in the video he clarified his views on. Just like the people opposing the action Playtonic took, he is tired of political correctness, he doesn't like people labeling others and putting them into groups or categories, and he doesn't understand why white people get so much hate and why it's okay to hate white people. And people who deny what he was trying to say are either trying too hard to defend their political side or have been living under a rock. He's tired of the double standards held against white people and I'm sure he isn't the only one.

If you haven't seen his video clarifying his stance (since it's unlisted for some reason) here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIFf7qwlnSc&t=0s

And he has a valid point. If he was of a different ethnicity, I'm willing to bet he would not have gotten as much publicity for his statements. All the people who come under fire and get a ton of publicity are white people. Nobody bats an eye when Black Lives Matter activists start saying we need to start killing white people, but man you better be ready for a storm if those ethnicities were reversed. Even with Manveer Heir, who is most definitely a racist, people had to get a petition made to get him fired for his racist tweets about white people that he has been doing for I don't know how long. But you don't see news outlets covering that of course.
Yooka-Laylee should be its own game with its own feeling. It shouldn't try to be like Banjo-Kazooie, it shouldn't try to be like Donkey Kong, it should be like Yooka-Laylee.

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