Quills: A (potential) problem...

Discussion and feedback for Playtonic's debut game, platformer adventure game Yooka-Laylee!
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Quills: A (potential) problem...

Postby Exaskryz » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:32 am

Woaaaah, it finally came out! :o

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ZeroJanitor
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby ZeroJanitor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:56 am

Maybe they can do something like "phantom Quills". Say you collect 60 quills then you die, your Quill record for that level will be 60, and the Quills you collected will reappear, but they'll be transparent and won't increase your Quill counter when collected. Any Quills you didn't collect in your previous run will appear as actual Quills and be added to your counter. Somewhat like the blue stars in SM64.

That way they can still be used to guide you through the level but you won't be forced to recollect them all to get all the Quills in the level.

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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Pisuke85 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:57 am


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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:37 am

I actually think 'Phantom Quills' would be a great idea.

Having quills disappear forever means:
1. They can't be used to guide you around the level, highlighting where to go etc.

2. If you miss one quill, it's so frustrating searching the entire world to find it. It could be anywhere.

Having quills reappear like N64 Banjo-Kazooie means:
1. If you die, you need to collect every single quill again. Frustrating.

2. You have no idea which ones you've already collected. (Though if using a 'best quill score', this point doesn't matter).

The solution:
The solution, as suggested, would be to keep quills permanent. Once collected, you keep it forever even if you die, but returning to the level will show the collected quills as transparent to help guide you etc.

Edit: Or drinking a Tonic will activate the transparent quills for those that want to use them as a guide/help them find any quills they missed. Or a Toxic Tonic that makes you need to collect all 200 in one life.
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby dotEXE » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:21 pm

Notes disappear forever once collected in Tooie. And nuts and bolts other similar games.
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:37 pm

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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Piet » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:08 pm


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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:17 pm

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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby dotEXE » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:26 pm

I mean, the more you explore the more you'll memorize the maps. I could probably draw every map from BK if you gave me a pen and paper. On top of that I could probably draw at least 90% of note locations on those maps. I don't think we need phantom notes, maps, or any of that stuff. You'll remember where you've been.
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:44 pm

Right, so how does that stop the issue of having to collect every single note again if you die or leave the world?

Notes that reappear mean you have to collect them all again. Notes that disappear mean you might lose your way and have a frustrating time looking for one last note.

You are taking for granted the fact that you've played Banjo-Kazooie loads of times. Also the fact BK levels are relatively small.
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby dotEXE » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:51 pm

I'm saying the quills should disappear, so you don't have to collect them again. That doesn't fix hunting for quills if you happen to die, but the solutions to that are a) deal with it or b) git gud. It's a collectathon, looking for things is kind of the point. If you can't find the last quill, explore more and enjoy the world a little bit. You'll eventually find it. And when you do it'll be all the more rewarding for your effort, rather than just handing the player everything with no work.

I won't complain if they decide adding phantom quills is the right move, I just don't see the point for several reasons. I think they'll look out of place, might confuse new players (invisible platforms can be made visible, phantom quills would look similar but react differently to the same moves), make the game easier for no real reason, and most importantly the worlds seem too big for it to be beneficial anyway. As it is, the quills we've seen are just sort of there. They don't lead down paths like they did in BK. Notes were more or less just there in BT as well, very few lead to paths. And the nests of notes were often hidden like a secret.

Edit: Notes -> quills
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:59 pm

I guess. I just know from experience, playing other platformers, that searching for a single collectible out of about 100 is so frustrating. Let alone 200. The fact is, if you've already explored the world and completed every challenge, it's not fun running around everywhere you've already been 10+ times. It's just not.

Though I won't be complaining either way. The game will still be fun regardless of how quills behave.

(And I think your point about 'phantom' quills and invisible platforms has no merit. The platforms are properly invisible with just some outlines showing, but 'phantom' quills would probably be translucent blueish so that they are still visible).
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby dotEXE » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:01 pm

Actually, since you mention running around again and again, and since Playtonic has SPECIFICALLY said they only want to have players backtrack when it's meaningful and interesting - I bet they'll have a solution for this problem in some form or another.

Avoiding this exact problem seems like it's on their agenda.
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Piet » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:37 pm


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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:41 pm

How about an option to toggle 'phantom' quills on and off?

Either as a standalone option, or something you can unlock. E.g. drinking a Tonic. Best of both worlds?
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Re: E3 trailer by Playtonic

Postby Piet » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:43 pm


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Re: Quills: A (potential) problem...

Postby Pokemaniac Dan » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:56 pm

Hm. I'm wondering what the issue would be, to be honest. I don't want the quills to act as a guide to where to go in a world. What's the fun in that? I thought we enjoyed the open exploration aspect of these games? Why make it simple by having phantom quills remind us where to go or which path to take?

I say let them disappear once collected. I'd enjoy the challenge of trying to hunt them all down, even if I'm missing 1. I'm also sure they wont put quills in random areas, like hidden in a corner or something. They'll likely be on platforms or main stretches of paths. They usually put things in bunches also, like if you were to dive underwater I'm sure there will be a pattern of 4 or 5 in corners or something like that, and not just 1 random quill behind a pipe that you wont see.

I think we're overthinking this. I know someone mentioned N&B (the horror!) but I didn't find the note searching too difficult in those worlds. Wasn't a challenge at all, really.

Trust that the quills will be fine in YL. They should disappear once collected. We'll be able to find them all.

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Re: Quills: A (potential) problem...

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:03 pm

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Re: Quills: A (potential) problem...

Postby dotEXE » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:07 pm

But again, in BT they don't ;D and that game turned out great! The bananas don't come back in DK64 either. We've already seen them do two different styles. I'm sure they'll come up with a workable solution, but I doubt we'll see the reappearing notes of BK. That was panned pretty hard, despite me liking the "all or nothing" approach.
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Re: Quills: A (potential) problem...

Postby Taylor » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:12 pm

The notes in BT are arguably set out to guide you too. They tend to follow a path. E.g. in Mayahem Temple you follow them right up the actual path. Some are hidden, like the Treble Clef behind the temple, but that's to be expected as it's a rare collectible.

Quills should not be challenging to find. They serve to guide, not to hunt down, especially as they are so common.

That's my opinion anyway. We still have other, rarer collectibles to actually hunt for.
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