Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Discussion and feedback for Playtonic's debut game, platformer adventure game Yooka-Laylee!
LinearZoetrope
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby LinearZoetrope » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:04 am


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chameleojack
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby chameleojack » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:11 am


triptyyk
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby triptyyk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:40 am

Ok, so I didn’t think this would be this long, but alas…

Overall, everything feels great.
If I got the game tomorrow, I’d probably have the same gripes, but I’d still likely play it, finish it, and love it.

But the game doesn't come out tomorrow.

Soooo…

Camera————
Of the specific camera angles in the glass/maze section...
The 3rd person camera gets stopped by the walls, which can be frustrating. If I want to spin the camera around, I feel as though the camera should continue to move in front of the wall and around/above the characters, even if it gets incredibly close to (or clips through) the character models.

(Of course, it’s still functional, and these types of games don’t tend to have super enclosed spaces...)

The overhead view is my favorite.
Though I don’t like the lack of control, it doesn’t bother me as much as the angled view, as it's fixed.

The angled view was the most frustrating for me. With so many walls and other objects in the way, you can lose track of things. I can’t even imagine if there were enemies in the area. The inability to move the camera is frustrating, especially since the camera already IS moving with the characters. It kind of highlights the fact that you yourself can’t move it. To me, a simple fix would be allowing the camera to spin around YL.

Ideally, in a section like this, I’d like to be able to have a third person camera that I can zoom out myself (through the glass) to something resembling the other two angles (but still allows rotation on an axis, so I can spin the camera). Other than that, my preferred method would be the angled view with an axis rotation.
——
In other camera things…
It doesn’t zoom out as far as I’d like it to. The furthest zoom is almost far enough, but then I start moving and the angle drops back down (unless I hold the camera stick the whole time, which isn't ideal).
——
I’ve noticed the camera does get stuck for a second if YL is standing right up against a wall and you try to move the camera “through” the wall.
——
I know this is sort of a thing in games, and there’s probably a word for it, but I don’t know that word. movement/camera-compensation?

Essentially: If I’m pressing the stick forward to run forward, and then the game switches the camera angle, usually a game compensates and let’s the character continue running the same direction, even if the character’s movement direction and my stick direction no longer match because of the new camera angle.

I was playing around in the the glass/maze area and the camera switching from 3rd person to overhead view sometimes caused YL to switch directions to follow my unmoved stick direction.


Movement————
Everything feels really good except for the roll move. It feels a little unresponsive and slippery——like they’re sliding on ice. It makes the tower climb incredibly frustrating.
(Given, Laylee is essentially rolling on a ball, and I don’t see that being exactly easy to control, but that’s reality and reality sucks. That’s why I play video games.)


Jumping————
Speaking of rolling, not being able to flap/glide out of a rolling jump is against intuition.
——
I feel like the double jump should be just as high as the double jump+glide.
Presently, Yooka jumps, jumps again for extra height, then Laylee starts flapping and they get another little bump in height (which seems to be from Yooka’s change in angle as his weight shifts when he grabs Laylee).

The platforms being almost exactly as high as Yooka’s double jump usually leads to his feet hitting the corner of the block and then he sort of “snaps” onto the platform——if he makes the jump at all.
If you have to wait for Laylee to kick in with her flapping in order to effectively platform, it makes platforming really slow.
——
Both the ground slam and the spring jump feel just a hair too slow.

Swimming————
The 2-button swimming feels unintuitive.
Instinctively, I want to hold the X button, and then have full 360 control with the stick.

Sliding————
The idea that I can slow down my sliding, but not jump whilst sliding is…confusing. It feels like it would be the opposite.
Slowing down being the only real means of intricate course correction makes the sliding section more plodding and annoying than exciting and challenging.

——————
Just some feedback!
Super looking forward to the game!

NoLimit
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby NoLimit » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:10 am

Just played through Yooka-Laylee on my stream. Overall I enjoyed the Toybox quite a bit, but there were a few issues I had.

1) For some reason, no matter what I did with my controls, my right stick that controlled the camera kept triggering the crouch and roll commands based on my moving the stick left or right respectively. So I had to play the whole time constantly going into crouch or roll whenever I tried moving the camera left or right. I have no idea what was causing it.

2) The movement overall was very comfortable for me, but it felt very strange to not have a ledge-grab option. And rolling, while fun, also felt a bit slippery and extremely difficult to do on that "spiral mountain" area where you have to roll up the mountain (not helped by my camera control bug). Combat also felt a bit limited with just a tail spin, but I'm sure that's just for the pre-alpha.

I also had a ton of trouble seeing where I was landing while jumping platforms, as I couldn't tell from my perspective how far something is sometimes and I fell to my death. I think that's due more to lack of shadows and the like than anything wrong movement-wise.

Swimming felt pretty awkward to me, as there wasn't an accelerate button to hold/push. Being only able to control ascending/descending felt a bit limiting.

3) For the one camera perspective choice, I preferred the first overhead shot instead of the isometric perspective.

4) The windy section's physics seemed a big odd, mostly because the animation of Yooka running the whole time from the wind rather than feeling like I'm being blown along with the wind. Maybe instead having Yooka & Laylee rolling from the wind?

5) The ball physics were pretty good, just was difficult to handle.

Other than that, I've had my fun with the game. =)

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Punksthetic
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Punksthetic » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:27 am

Not to add to the noise (I've already made my post addressing all my concerns, and the devs at Playtonic are going to have a hell of time sorting through these), but I just wanted to stress the tightness of Banjo's controls in the first two games. Since this game borrows heavily from those, I feel like it's justified to compare them.

To explain, take a move like the beak buster. Once you perform that move, you can't get out of it. It's a big commitment of a move, so it takes priority over any other move. Then take a move like the roll. I'm not sure if it was possible in BK, but at least in Tooie, you could roll and then jump out of the roll at any time, and it was incredibly quick. Then there is the beak barge move, which you could control how far you went depending on how long you held the B button down. Hell, you could even steer it left and right. Then take something simple as the way Banjo walked. You could really slow things down and feel totally at ease on a platform because his controls never felt too jittery or clumsy. Going in the water felt incredibly simple and easy, because all you had to do was push the control stick to swim on the surface, press B to go underwater, and then simply steer where you wanted to go from there. With the flap flip, while you didn't jump as high as Yooka and Laylee, you felt more in control over where you landed after the fact.

In short, you really felt in control of Banjo and Kazooie in those games.

Contrast that with Yooka-Laylee's controls, and it's the difference between a seasoned veteran and a rookie (an apt metaphor). Yooka and Laylee clearly aren't too experienced yet, so their moveset feels a bit more rough around the edges and sloppy. It's an interesting contrast, but I think "control" over the character should take priority here... Anyway, I know it's going to be its own thing, but my motto is, don't fix what ain't broken.

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TheGamaniac
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGamaniac » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:25 am


Quantzz
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Feedback/suggestions for feel of controls

Postby Quantzz » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:34 am

Hey there just finished toybox and loved it, my only concern is some polish on the actual movement feel, so with that in mind heres some ideas/suggestions that might improve it 8-)

1)Camera resetting during jumps
In some of the flying platform sections of the toybox I noticed the camera would reset itself in the middle of the air, its quite annoying when the camera resets itself without any player input, especially in punishing twitchy midair segments. I also noted that in general the camera would reset behind you too quickly while standing still instead of having a couple seconds delay before it rubber bands. Super mario 64 probably had the best rubber banding camera for this.

2)No way to jump while sliding downhill
This is sort of self evident, it would be a lot more fun to be able to at least hop during sliding segments

3)Ability interaction
Right now it seems like a lot of abilities can't interact with each other, for example if you jump out of a roll you cannot ground pound, another example would be that after coming out of a ground pound you can't immediately start rolling during the recovery jump, to me it makes movement feel disjointed when abilities have to wait for recovery animations rather than blending together.
Examples of this done well are games like mario sunshine or jak & daxter that make you feel like you have a lot of control over your movement.

4) Slide jump/pounce?
The game seems to be missing some kind of quick horozontal jump, something like a pounce might be fun.
If you run Yooka along and then go to high jump he almost instantly loses all momentum while setting up for the high jump and it feels very awkward, it seems like the perfect place to sneak a horizontal jump in, it would be even more awesome if you could do a pounce jump like that and then land into a roll if you wanted to.

5) Glide/triple jump
The glide feels like it gives you extra height at the beginning, it makes sense since the bat would be lifting you but gameplay wise it makes the jumps you can and can't make very deceptive, it might be a better idea to slightly raise the height of the double jump while only using the glide for horizontal movement so that it becomes easier to judge distances, Laylee could also use a bit more stamina, long glides from top of the level to the bottom are fun :mrgreen:

6) Swimming
This is probably the only real problem area, it feels like the rise up and down controls aren't responsive, you will still swim down well after you let go of the button and try to swim up, it also feels a little weird that swimming doesn't respect camera direction and the ground pound into the water doesn't face you downwards ready to keep going.
I would say the best example of swimming was done in Spyro 2 where it respected your momentum and made it really fun instead of a chore like most other games. Maybe some kind of quick dash attack in the water might be fun?

7)Physics objects don't react to being attacked
Would be nice if the purple ball acted like its been smacked if you attack it rather than just sliding with no reaction to anything but your movement

8)Grab button for crates
A contextual grab button for crates/switches would be cool, its nice to have more control

Sorry for rambling, hopefully the feedback helps but i'm sure lots of other players have better ideas than me, good luck and can't wait for full release :mrgreen:

Scooter789
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Scooter789 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:09 am

I just wanted to share some wicked-looking texture issues that Laylee was having during my second playthrough of the toybox.


Poor Laylee.

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BlueFalcon7
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Rolling Mechanics suggestions

Postby BlueFalcon7 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:24 am

OK, so I read through this thread (OK, maybe just the first few and last few pages) and a few other threads to make sure that I'm not repeating what everyone else is saying. These may have been mentioned, but I will say them anyways. Feel free to disagree with me though! I'm putting it out there!

Rolling
For starters - when sliding down a hill, it would be nice to be able to jump or get into a roll from there. From a purely body mechanics perspective, it makes sense that you could get into a roll (unless Yooka has really weak abs.)
Second - when trying to roll up a hill that is too slippery/steep for even a roll, it would seem more intuitive that Yooka and Laylee would stay in their roll rather than go into the falling slide animation. From there, they could either completely lose traction in their roll, or just let gravity take precedence for the direction of the roll until flatter ground is reached. To me, this seems more intuitive.

GPU Requirements - Not sure if this belongs in this thread, but it says that I need a GeForce GTS 450. While this seems a bit obscure in hindsight, I took this to mean a GeForce 400 series card. I'm still rockin' GTX 275 :ugeek: and was able to play the game on "Fantastic" with almost no lag at 1920 x 1200. I understand that my card is faster than a GTS 450, but it's a generation behind. I do however get this lovely graphical glitch-

And of course, thank you for letting us backers play around with the Toybox before the release of the game! I look forward to the final product!

Psliv94
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Psliv94 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:04 am

Happy to finally have my hands on the toybox. Yooka-laylee most definitely feels like a Banjo-Kazooie game. I have the following feedback:

1. Camera preference feedback specifically asked for. In such places I like birds eye most, then 45 degree angle.

2. Controlling the ball (especially trying to push it up the ramp) was difficult and frustrating.

3. Rolling is too realistic and unresponsive for sharp corners.

4. The quills and other collectables need to have shadows underneath them to help show where they actually are. Poor depth perception.

5. Implication of a first person view to look around the environment to plot paths and find collectables.

6. Camera zoom levels (as present in banjo-kazooie and super mario 64, etc)

These are the things I have to say so far off the top of my head. As I continue to replay I will continue to update. If these points are already addressed in the finished game then disregard.

Thanks you and I can't wait to get my hands on the game! :D

GAfitness
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby GAfitness » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:13 am

Love the new way to swim. So much easier to navigate compared to DK64 and Banjo. The tail jump and smash move are a bit similar and sometimes the control doesn't react to the tail jump and does a smash instead. That would be my main criticism. The only other one I had was when I was rolling up the different platforms it was hard to move the camera and it became a guessing game as I couldn't see the next platform.

Otherwise looking forward to the game!

Caitie
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Caitie » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:00 pm

I've played the Toybox 3 times this morning and I love it.

It would be nice however in the full game if the tutorial gave both mouse and keyboard and controller instructions or let the user choose which set of instructions they want. Also the camera seems to get stuck behind walls sometimes but I'm not sure if I'm just struggling with the camera controls as I'm not used to a controller.

Also I had the message for getting 50 quills pop up as I was rolling up the blue ramp with the jump in the middle on the orange island and it made me fall of and have to start over. This could get frustrating if it happens often in the full game.

I really love the pink marble bit and the overhead camera view for the puzzle section is cool.

GeorgeOfHyrule
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby GeorgeOfHyrule » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:06 pm

Hey there,

Amazing Toybox+, I still play Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie on my N64 now and then. Love them so much, your games shaped a fair amount of my humour growing up, so ridiculous and British like myself.

I did enjoy the third camera angle in the puzzle box section, due to the possibilities of hidden items. However I feel like a birdseye view that follows you a little more closely would be the easiest on the eyes. Also, I think giving the Quills shadows would really help to gauge exactly where they are, i miss them sometimes!, or maybe i'm just bad.

Thank you so much for putting the toybox together, i absolutely love that the minions are called Keith. my brother and i call each other Keith for jokes, so it makes me laugh a lot.

Small control issues when double jumping, sometime if i double jump and hit a ledge, I cannot hold the X button to flap Laylee's wings and float down etc. Other than that, everything was brilliant.


VoodooKills24
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby VoodooKills24 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:27 pm

I found the camera to be a little bit annoying at times. It was good for the most part, but whenever I would move it back it wouldn't 'lock' in that position, and I had to keep fighting it to get it to stay where I wanted.

For some reason it really bothered me that I couldnt grab onto ledges. The double jump could get you up onto a lot of platforms... IF you times it well. Like you just barely made it up there. This seemed weird to me and was my main complaint. Those two things combined make for sub-par platforming in a game where that is your main goal. I found myself high jumping a majority of the time because it was just easier, and I don't feel like that should be the case.

Everyone hates water sections in games and that was no different here. The water controls definitely need tuning. Just tapping A or X leaves you to what seems like a drastic change in depth for only having tapped it. It also takes like 2 seconds to do so, which doesn't sound like a lot when you say it like that, but it needs to be more responsive I think.

Rolling was very fun until you had to climb the tower and make tight turns using it. It was way too hard given the sliding, so I would suggest either changing that, or giving a little more leeway on challenges like that one.

Textures (that were done) were amazing, music (obviously) was also amazing, and the dialogue was funny. Besides those few complaints I had, I did enjoy the Toybox as a whole, and can't wait for the game's release! Thank you for giving us the opportunity to try it out early! :)

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CyanideInsanity
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby CyanideInsanity » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:00 pm

A bit short(ok maybe not in hindsight), and I'm sure repeating what others have said, but so far I've only got a couple of things to say.

First, thank you for knowingly(or not) allowing the game to use both controller and mouse inputs simultaneously. Using my steam controller I prefer having the right pad set a mouse input with the rest as as xinput controller. It would also be nice to see locking the cursor to the window either by simply doing it or adding an option/.ini tweak. Its not really an issue for me(just a slight annoyance) but it makes it hard to play with kb+m.

Next is the swimming controls. I don't know if I'll end up preferring it to the old way of mario and bk but it feels a bit stiff with moving up and down. Each press moves you a decent amount up or down which feels awkward.

Also the text size. Its fine but I'd prefer if you could do the same thing that nuts and bolts did adding an option for the smaller or larger text size.

Lastly, it wouldn't be a 3d platformer without slightly a wonky camera would it? Yeah the camera can get stuck on the geometry every now and then and centering the camera doesn't work during these bouts of locked camera. I've noticed it seems specifically tied to when going around a large object and letting the camera lag behind.

Something else that dawned on me after posting, I think we would all appreciate a first person or shoulder view button!

Nobleness
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Nobleness » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:56 pm

I think I found everything,. Also I managed to get the ghost!

I'm impressed, in my personal opinion a few things could be fine tuned but I could easily still play the finished product if it was like the toybox.

-I find the ground stomp animation just a tad slower than I would like
-I think the frame rate of the toy box was slower then 60fps consistently, maybe at 30fps I can only assume though this is due to it being the toybox
-Camera was mostly really good, parts were it was a bit odd was when up close in enclosed areas. I'd prefer it to try and static itself at a distance or at least have it a button press/toggle.
-I would like a First person look around option but again I assume this was not necessary in the toybox so perhaps it's on the cards.
-Moving the camera is a tad slower than I want, perhaps a slider to control camera panning speed?
-another camera thought, I know sorry, perhaps more an alternative to the under character shadow when jumping/hover maybe a following above character view on a toggle/press and hold?
-pushing objects could be done via a button press with some controlled fluidness, perhaps a button hold that sticks the character to the pushed/pulled object to better control direction.

Now that that's out of the way, things I am really liking:
-the rolling feels great, the squeaking sound is much better than a constant squawking :P
-liking the swimming controls, the faster swimming when above water is great as well.
-great level design, loved finding the secret platforms
-general movement and control of Yooka. If need be they stop on a dime!
-The environmental effects look great.
-character animation is great
-the music, omg that music, just like old times!
-textures look great
-great sound effects (I swear the robots are making sounds from Jet Force Gemini!)
-the environment objects have some great design (as I type this I could see a triforce in the spawning platform)

I think that's it hope my feedback helps also, if it's useful, I was playing it on the following specifications:

-Windows 10 64bit up to date (30/07/16)
-GTX 980 up to date
-16gb ram
-Intel core i5 something (can't remember but hopefully not important enough to mention)
-streaming to a steam link running at (beautiful) performance
-using a mayflash Wii U pro controller receiver

Nobleness

rardk64
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby rardk64 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:33 pm

I'm liking it so far. Of course this isn't a finished game, so lack of polish is to be expected. As such, missing animations for things like pushing boxes can be tolerated, I'm assuming this sort of thing will make it into the final game obviously.

I like the overheard camera and the angled camera view the best. I'm not sure yet which of those two I like better, I'll probably try it a few more times.

The ball rolling (you know, rolling an actual boll, not when Yooka rolls) would be better if you actually latched onto the ball to push it, as opposed to walking into it, hoping it goes where you want. I know that'd probably make it easier to work with, but it also just feels better in my opinion.

As for Yooka's roll, I think by nature it being difficult to control makes sense, but it'd be cool if it could turn on a dime? That might be a hilarious thing to ask for, however.

Overall, I remain excited for the final release! I'm glad I got the Toybox :D

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MAL1K42
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby MAL1K42 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:42 pm

is it frame capped at 60?

Cyber Robert
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Cyber Robert » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:09 pm

Welp, my turn even though you're going to see a lot of the same that people have been saying. And also note: I realize that this game is pre-alpha and thus is not perfect, so most of these criticisms may seem like I'm being picky more than anything.

-Camera that was explicitly asked for:
while the dynamic view is the most "interesting" of the three, I feel like the overhead view from the second section is a lot more practical and easiest on the eyes. I'll have to go with that.

-Other camera problems: Well sometimes when the camera is next to a wall and it tries to go through it to focus on Yooka, it wedged itself into the object, which can get pretty annoying. The other thing I want to say is is that first person camera would be pretty nice to have to be able to better plan areas as well as better appreciate the museum like areas for the particle effects and enemies and whatnot.

Also I believe letting the camera lock on angles that we set could be nice too. It was a bit of a hassle trying to platform using it from time to time, though nothing too major.

-Platforming issues: I honestly haven't had too many of these, though a ledge grab would be pretty nice to have. Another thing is that personally on the area where you get to the highest robot, the last platform before you reach solid ground was always a bit wonky for me. More often than not, I end up just clipping the edge of it and Laylee's hover doesn't activate making a long fall for me.

There's also the climbing the rolling hill. It was just very frustrating more than anything. I feel like it should be worked with on either making the rolling be able to turn a lot sharper or make challenges like that less of what feels to be the control's fault.

-Other ideas possibly: I think that run should probably be triggerable instead of holding a button, but I think that's more my way of looking at things than anything else, as I used the Talon Trot a lot on BK and that was holding a button soooo I guess that one isn't too bad.

Now for the positive stuff:
I had a blast doing a lot of the platforming beyond the area previously mentioned and the rolling tower. I was able to judge distances pretty well, even with the camera acting a bit wonky for me. I also love this robot NPC, albeit I'm a bit biased since I do love robots. :3

Octopeart
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Octopeart » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:37 pm

I get the feeling that some of the moves might feel a little strange in order to make certain moves that aren't in the Toyboxes possible. For instance, we know there are underwater enemies, so maybe the swimming mechanic allows for easier attacking or something. Also, I think the Reptile Roll uses the power meter, so it won't be used as the primary method of movement in the final game. That can potentially alleviate some worries about the slippery feel.


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