Where is the love?

Discuss stuff wot ain't games. You do have other hobbies, right?
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Luigi_Lucarelli
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Where is the love?

Postby Luigi_Lucarelli » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:34 pm

I've been noticing a lot of hate or cynicism for indies working on 3D platformers. The negativity just brings people down really and it doesn't feel very constructive. I was hoping that people on these forums would understand how important this genre is and that there is an empty void in the video game world. The lack of 3D platformers is ridiculous, people love this genre and yet they are almost nonexistent in the "AAA" gaming industry. Why is that? That should be the focus here.

Yes, I know what happened in the past, where it felt like there may be too many 3D platformers, but so what? There are so many similar action games, fighting games, rpg games etc. but these games still get to see the light of day and someone out there is enjoying them. People didn't like Donkey Kong 64 but I loved that game! I collected everything happily because I enjoyed exploring the world, listening to the music and hanging out with all of the characters. So it baffles me when people are glad that games like Clive N Wrench don't get funded. Why be happy about projects getting shot down? It's very rude and disrespectful to the teams who just want to share their passion for the genre. It's not easy to make games but these teams are trying their best.

I'm very proud of what I've made for A Hat in Time and I am even more proud of the team for creating something truly nostalgic and fun. I can safely say we wanted to remind people about this great genre and without the support from fellow kindred spirits like yourselves, it would have never been possible.

TLDR: I guess what I'm just trying to say is, let's be more supportive of others trying to bring back this genre. Playtonic Games is going to be the flagship that leads the way to bringing back this genre we all love, but let's not forget the smaller teams who also have big dreams. It's ok if you dislike some things about these projects, but it's much better to focus on the true goal; bringing back the genre we all have been missing for so long.

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Taylor
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Taylor » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:39 pm

Well said. I personally didn't back Clive 'N' Wrench because it wasn't for me, personally, but I was hoping it would be funded just to add more variety to the 3D platformer renaissance. It's one of those games I would have picked up upon release, but not followed the development progress as closely as Project Ukulele for example.

There's no such thing as too much choice. Consumers will buy the ones they like the look of; it's how the industry works. Currently we haven't got much choice at all when it comes to 3D platforming, but I'm loving all the indie projects that have been popping up. I think the big developers have noticed it and are probably considering, or are already making, some 3D platformers of their own... Fingers crossed.

P.S. Love the work you've done for A Hat In Time! :)
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Coolboyman
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Coolboyman » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:51 pm

Agree 100%. While I gave my personal opinion on FreezeME, I'm still happy that it exists and that people are enjoying it. I'm working on my own platformer as well so I know how it feels. If any of the developers for that project saw my post and were offended about my opinion towards it, then I apologize for it. I hope they get their project done because the world needs more 3D platformers.

Very happy to have A Hat in Time developer here as well!

Shoegayzer
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Shoegayzer » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:20 pm

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Last edited by Shoegayzer on Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jellyfunk
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Jellyfunk » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:55 pm

People want what's best for the genre, they don't want to be flooded with hundreds of mediocre games.

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Rueckkoppler
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Rueckkoppler » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:32 pm


Jellyfunk
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Jellyfunk » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:10 am

It's good to disable bombs before they detonate.

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polomi
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby polomi » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:56 am

3D platformers is my favorite video game genre. But I won't back and support a game solely because it's a 3D platformer. I don't care about reviving the genre if I'm not likely to enjoy the game because some aspects of it don't exactly match my tastes. There are so many games out there, so many great games (even if they're not 3D platformers), that we can afford to be extremely picky about what we like, what we want, what we support, what we spend our time playing. Some of the 3D platformers that have been on Kickstarter just don't exactly match my tastes, and therefore I don't care about them, I only have an hour or so per day for games and there are tons of games that I like much more out there and that I have yet to play. It's not negativity towards the devs, it's not trying to prevent the revival of the genre, it's not hostility, I'm just criticizing the aspect of the games that I don't like enough to justify why I don't back it on Kickstarter. It's a forum, that's what we do, we talk about what we like and don't like in games. If the Kickstarter succeeds without my support, good for all the people who think they'd like the game.

And I don't see why you turn this into an issue specifically about 3D platformers. It's not just 3D platformers, everything is like that. My favorite literature genre is science-fiction, and yet I strongly dislike about 95% of science-fiction books.

TL;DR: I have a ~200 games backlog on Steam/GOG, out of those maybe 5% look like outstanding games that I really want to play, I have ~1 hour per day for gaming, the competition to be that one game that I'll spend this daily hour on is very harsh, I'm not gonna back games that are even just so slightly outside what I enjoy the most.

EDIT: I may be slightly off-topic, because you're talking about people being happy about games getting shot down. I don't remember that behaviour, though I do remember harsh criticisms, which isn't the same thing at all. If people really want such projects to fail, then yeah I can't support that point of view.

Shoegayzer
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Shoegayzer » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:56 am

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Last edited by Shoegayzer on Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dotEXE
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby dotEXE » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:46 am

Foreword: Entire post is not addressing Project Ukulele, which is a game being made by proven industry professionals who have made an insane amount of extremely successful games and proven their worth.

I give credit where credit is due.

There are an excessive amount of cheaply made, amateur, bland, slow, choppy, chuggy 3D platformers being announced and released right now that are just riding on nostalgia and "hey remember that 90s thing you loved!? we loved it too!". Lobodestroyo is the only indie 3D platformer coming that seems to have any decent polish and design, and seems to not be running at 10FPS. And even they're running on quite a bit of "remember Crash Bandicoot?". Clive N Wrench was awful, you could watch the frames fly by. FreezeME looks like it was made by going in a Mario Galaxy world editor (especially those pipes) and throwing assets randomly about. A Hat In Time tries way too hard to be lolsorandom while name dropping Banjo-Kazooie and having none of Banjo-Kazooie's charm. It's so sterile.

This is what happens every time there's a boom. There's a tiny bit of wheat, and a lot of chaff. Look at the hundreds of Minecraft clones on every app store. Look at the hundreds of Flappy Bird clones that still exist. Everyone can see the spotlight, and a lot of people want to be in it before it passes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law

Edit: "Back in the day, 3D-platformers were THE big AAA adventure games"

This is true. And then there were too many of them with little innovation or quality out of most studios. And then there were none. It happened to WWII games as well. It happened to Guitar Hero and Rockband (which fittingly enough is now seeing it's own resurrection 8 years later). It happened to the MMO and to some extent continues to (there's only 1 WoW but there are thousands of dead Korean F2P MMOs you've never heard of). It's happening right now with Assassin's Creed, "Bro Shooters", etc. And if we're not careful the platformer will die yet again before it even gets back off the ground. More choice doesn't mean people make more decisions, too much choice means people choose "not at all" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

"There are so many games out there, so many great games (even if they're not 3D platformers), that we can afford to be extremely picky about what we like"

Precisely. My backlog is already 200+ games deep. Why throw money at sub-par projects? Rare made the best platformers I've ever played with way way way way worse hardware than exists FOR FREE today, and with a small team.

And to clear something up, I never said "I hope this project fails" or "I'm glad this project failed". I said "I dislike this project and here is my reasoning."
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CrazyChaos
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby CrazyChaos » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:05 am

I think the criticism can still be seen as support. Support does not necessarily have to always be in the form of compliments. Actually, I think criticism may be better support than compliments. Compliments are good for showing what has been done right, criticism is good for showing what needs to be changed or improved. I agree that some people were rather harsh on some games, mostly on areas that were either due to limited funds or subject to change anyway such as the visuals. We all want to see these kinds of games come back strong, and for that to happen we probably need to see some top-shape games in the genre to encourage it. So some hard criticism may have to be taken, acknowledged, and answered.

Seeing these indie 3D platformer games makes me wish I could pitch in and work on a 3D platformer myself though. However, I am unable to do that for various unfortunate reasons. So while I may criticize, though I have yet to actually do that publicly, I still keep in mind that they are doing what I cannot do and I try to appreciate it. Somewhat enviously, but still appreciative.

Good points have been made in this thread on both sides of the issue. I wanted to quote a few just to express my agreement with them, but that may be a bit too many and I should probably go to sleep soon.

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rocho
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby rocho » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:36 am


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GrayMagicΓ
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby GrayMagicΓ » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:22 pm

DLC? UGANDA WILL NOT HAVE THIS SICKNESS!

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Rueckkoppler
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Rueckkoppler » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:52 pm


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dotEXE
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby dotEXE » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:12 pm

I didn't react because you missed the entire point. It's NOT a paradox to say they tried to be like Banjo Kazooie but failed. The fact they aren't like Banjo Kazooie but based their marketing heavily on being like BK and pulling on nostalgia is the entire problem. If your sign says you built a house and I go look and it's really a shed with some house siding, we have a problem.

This is an open forum, users asked for an opinion, I gave one. Concisely and without personal attacks I might add (and without calling any single user out directly). You see more to the game, I do not, which means they've failed to reach me (and others) somewhere between concept, development, and marketing. Probably primarily marketing to be honest. If you dislike it when people disagree with your opinion then that's a problem you'll have to figure out how to manage.
Last edited by dotEXE on Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rueckkoppler
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Rueckkoppler » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:32 pm

You didn't understand it & I tried to explain it to you. They never tried to mimic B-K! That's the whole point you missed.

Simple question: Show me how they based their marketing on B-K. Original quotes. Because I have the strong feeling that you're overreacting and totally misunderstood what they meant when MENTIONING B-K AND Mario 64 as the most iconic games of this genre & their inspiration - not template. But since you didn't understand it, you play the "lousy copy" card all over again and reduce the game to a freakin' line on a Kickstarter-page.

BTW: Lobodestroyo is much closer to mimicking B-K, and even there I'm not slightly mad about it.

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dotEXE
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby dotEXE » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:49 pm

Tagline of their kickstarter: http://i.imgur.com/vfe3L4Y.png

From Kickstarter again: http://i.imgur.com/131ngrL.png, and they didn't miss a single chance to pimp out his name or the fact he worked on BK once they got him, not that I can blame them for that.

Yet again the initial Kickstarter pitch: http://i.imgur.com/qKLerGO.png

There was a video that mentioned BK somewhere as well, but it seems to have been completely replaced with a gameplay video now that there's an Alpha of the game.

And not to mention every. single. time. I've even remotely mentioned Banjo Kazooie on any forum for the last two years someone has to stick out their head and say "Oh if you liked Banjo you'll LOVE this AHIT game". No I won't. I don't like it. And I don't have to. It doesn't hit on a single aspect that I liked from ANY of the games they've mentioned. And so far nobody has managed to convince my why I should like it. And everyone who has tried has just distanced me from it further.

Mind you I have other issues with the game besides just the nostalgia-grab (dislike the level design, dislike the approach to art and assets, the lighting is really weird and overdone, the moves are uninteresting to me) but that's the most egregious. I just don't really care for anything about it, but the constant direct comparisons to my favorite game of all time, that I have beaten over 100 times, left a lasting bad impression. Using existing media as a comparative is a double-edged sword. I'm not the only person who was turned off the game by it, and then there were obviously plenty of people who liked the comparison because it got backed.

You can't please everyone.
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Rueckkoppler
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Rueckkoppler » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:58 pm


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dotEXE
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby dotEXE » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:03 pm

The instant you name an existing product in your pitch you're establishing a measuring stick that it will be compared to, for better or worse.

It's obvious you really love A Hat In Time. It should be equally obvious to you that I dislike it for numerous reasons and have even expanded past the primary issue of apparent nostalgia pandering. We each have people who agree with us. You have failed to convince me why I should love it too, and for the foreseeable future you will be unable to convince me. Nagging people to like it will not make them like it.

You can't please everyone. Sometimes people will have an opinion different from your own.
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Rueckkoppler
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Re: Where is the love?

Postby Rueckkoppler » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:15 pm



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