Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Discussion and feedback for Playtonic's debut game, platformer adventure game Yooka-Laylee!
Wigglytuff
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Toybox feedback/suggestions

Postby Wigglytuff » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:07 am

1. an option to prevent the camera from auto-panning behind you would be very helpful
2. ability to look further up/down with the camera, or be able to go first-person while standing still
3. the camera would get stuck on objects/surfaces/walls (this is probably already fixed)
4. add some idle animation(s) for ball rolling (this is probably already fixed)
5. possibly make the squeaking noise while rolling around quieter
6. 1-2 more "ha/hee" sounds for laylee while rolling around
7. ability to flutter out of ball form (which seems to jump about as far as the double jump)
8. an option to make ball-rolling a toggle
9. an option to disable the dynamic shadow while mid-air
10. the robot's voice was slightly annoying, however the quill's voice was fantastic
11. I am fine if ledge-grabbing isn't in the game. All ledge-grabbing did was increase Banjo's effective jump height, which resulted in every ledge being a bit higher up. Also it was slow.
12. I think the best solution for the maze camera is to allow players to pick the camera style they want in the options menu. (I think that the top-down/bird's eye view was the best)
13. If you spin-attack off a ledge, you are able to jump+doublejump+flutter out of it. I'm not sure if this is intentional.

Overall, I think that the toybox is amazing, and I look forward to the full release.

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Re: Toybox feedback/suggestions

Postby TreeInT'Mornin' » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:21 am

I also noticed if you high jumped (jump while crouching)while running, you kept a little momentum, which could carry you off edges. You'd still do your high jump but while falling, which let you catch yourself- or just meant a longer fall to your death. Not sure how I feel about it but it's a definite thing I noticed (and exploited).
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Ritaku » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:55 am


pizzamom
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby pizzamom » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:56 am

Everything is running great and I've been occasionally running around just because the characters are fun to control. The only problem I have so far is jumping out of roll. I understand if it would be game breaking during certain parts of the game but I keep trying to glide when I jump out of rolling mode and it just feels wrong that I can't.

Edit: Also, there's no idle animation for the rolling mode, making Laylee stagnantly jumping in the air when you have R held down. And when you are rolling into the wind, instead of rolling against the wind, the characters just stay still which looks odd.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Cyber Akuma » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:28 am

After going through the toybox, here were my experiences about it:

The first thing that struck me as odd was how there was no ledge-grab. So many of my jumps felt like they barely made it and I was struggling to hover against the ledge but was a hair too low to get on top of it, I didn't realize how to reach most of the areas until I found out about the spring-jump.... which leads me to my next point.

The spring jump felt massively over-utilized. It pretty much completely renders the standard single and double-jump moot, at least half if not more of the areas felt like they could only be reached with it, and there was no reason not to use it in place of a standard jump, I was just using it everywhere and practically forgot about the standard jump, in fact, I was pretty much completely able to bypass that sea-saw area ( http://i.imgur.com/das4hQJ.jpg ) by standing on the middle and spring-jumping to avoid several of them. It nearly surprised me when I re-visited some areas and was able to reach those with a standard double-jump. On top of this, using it in motion felt odd. The way the animation plays, it feels like something meant to be used when you are stationary, but you can use it while in motion and you even continue moving a little bit while using it. The animation and point of the move don't seem to match up with being able to use it while moving.

Although, what I did like about the spring-jump is that holding A immediately puts you into slide at the end of the jump so you don't have to time it manually, holding A on the double-jump seems to do this too, though not on a single jump.

I also found it helpful how you could do your second jump or glide while falling. Most games, only let you do the second jump and/or slide at the apex of your jump, not once you have started descending.

I understand that the ToyBox is practically a "debug view" and that you can easily tell which ledge will make you slide simply because it's blue, but some of them felt too shallow to be sliding on. E.G. That small pyramid near the stone arches, the angle is so shallow and the ledge itself barely taller than Yooka that it felt like I should be able to run on it, but you instantly slide as soon as you come into contact.

Speaking of which, while I know the whole point of the sliding is the game basically telling you "No, you can't just run up here, find a different way to get back", it feels like you have a bit too little control during sliding, namely, how you can't jump while sliding.

Also while I am on the subject of sliding and ledges, it felt a bit too easy to go up a ledge too, you just have to be rolling, wouldn't you need to build momentum for some of them first?

And speaking of rolling, it felt difficult to transition to a jump/glide from a roll. You can jump while rolling, but it didn't seem like the game was designed to quickly let you stop rolling and go into a jump/glide, I just wound up hopping a little while the rolling animation ended whenever I tried.

Come to think of it, movement underwater felt a little rough as well, there was a lot of drag causing you to turn very slow.

It was very hard to tell if there was anything behind the vertical glass walls, I don't know if this was intentional, but the effect the walls use distorts what is behind them so much that until I stood still and tried to focus on what was behind them, I couldn't even tell anything was behind them at all, much less WHAT was behind them.

Also, while we are on the subject of visuals, the shadows confused me too. Took me a little bit to realize that the game had two shadows, and only one relates to where you will land when you drop down, I had a few falls because of thinking the non-drop shadow was where I would land.

Some other things I ran into:

Camera is easy to get stuck behind walls, especially if there are a bunch of towers or narrow ledges around you, this can be annoying when the camera winds up facing you and you want to turn it around. Such as here: http://i.imgur.com/1itCu1P.jpg

It felt difficult to push objects correctly with the way the physics engine works, it took a few tries in that glass-ceiling area to get the game to recognize I was trying to push something and actually move it, and in others like near that sea-saw area, it was near impossible to move stuff where I wanted to.

The physics for movable objects also feel very floaty, the objects themselves act like they have no weight to them and are very easy to flip over or turn at an angle when you wanted to push it straight.

Come to think of it, some of the debris landed standing vertically against a wall, acting like a platform. I am not sure if this is the right kind of physics engine for this game, it seems a bit too "realistic" for the rest of the cartoony nature of this game. I was expecting the boxes and barrels to shatter with parts falling all over the place when I broke them, not just... slightly fall apart in place with half their pieces leaning against walls.

At a few points the collision detection on the sea-saws failed and I fell through them.

This texture was pretty pixelated up-close: http://i.imgur.com/QVgAV4M.jpg

Charbox
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Charbox » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:03 am

I really enjoyed the Toybox it definitely captures that Banjo feel. I made a playthrough where I go through what I like and don't like. Mostly the movement in a roll in confined spaces and the lack of options to move the pink ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veYpuNN ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Svenshinhan » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:30 am


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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Kavukamari » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:00 pm

Loved the toybox, here's some things I noted while playing, I'm sure other people have already noticed some of them too

"Issues":
* no stopped animation for the roll ball, just freezes the other animation
* high jump can be used while sliding off a cliff
* can jump for a few frames after falling off the slidey ledges
* camera getting stuck on geometry
* Performance: Win 7 with Nvidia GTX 750 Ti: lots of framerate drops when inside the tornado effects, leaving the area stops the problem, seems to be fine everywhere else

Preferences:
* as another person said, I'd like to be able to look up and down further
* Unless it's a specific character trait, Laylee just feels slightly incomplete without a cute tail nub on her butt, it would be adorable
* I love the tactile feel of the slight drift while using the rollball, it's a bit clunky when trying to be precise but it's still fun, you just gotta deal with it
* I feel like i should be able to glide out of the roll-ball jump, it somehow doesn't feel right how it just snaps back to the ground when you let go of the roll button in the air
* I think it would be nice to be able to smoothly transition into the roll-ball when falling and hitting the ground (from a safe distance, of course), instead of the slight pause where Yooka lands and then does the roll-up animation shortly after, it would be nice to keep the momentum going

giggs
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby giggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:04 pm


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dotEXE
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Re: A Few Things.

Postby dotEXE » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:20 pm

Make the forum great again.

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Re: A Few Things.

Postby Nanirourou » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:32 pm

Last edited by Nanirourou on Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
you kuh lady

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby the8thark » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:02 pm


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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Volvagia » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:09 pm


banjokaboom
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Just my two cents...

Postby banjokaboom » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:30 pm

I've played through the toybox a few times, and there were some "issues" or thoughts that I had about different mechanics. All opinions of course.

-In BK, while doing the Talon Trot, you can jump and then flap (double jump) to hover over large chasms, which helped in navigation. It would be nice to add that capability to Yooka-Laylee's RT roll, since now the kill animation for the roll takes a while before you can save yourself with the flapping.
-I've found on numerous occasions that I am still holding LT down when doing a Flap-Flip, and at the peak of the flip Yooka-Laylee do a ground pound when I didn't intend for it. The control should only trigger a ground pound on the release and then subsequent click of LT to prevent that.
-It may be fixed with the above thing, but in trying to prevent that I've found myself ground-pounding mid-attempt at doing a Flap-Flip, right on the ground, before I even launch, because I am trying to not hold LT too long.
-My opinion of course, but I don't like the sound effect for Inept's voice. I find it...very annoying. Sorry! :oops:

I did thoroughly enjoy every other aspect of the toybox. The level was great, gameplay was smooth, and I really enjoyed the collectibles and puzzles. Keep up the good work guys, can't wait for the finally result!

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Radioactive » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:50 pm

[Note : As english is not my native language, please excuse me if some of my sentences sounds strange, will do my best to stay understandable]

I've finally get my codes for the Toybox and Toybox +.

I enjoyed it. It feels so close to some bear and bird adventures i tasted somewhere in my childhood. <3
The movements feels intuitive, like if i played this game all my life, except the swimming controls. I find them really counter-intuitive. Maybe the left stick should be used like it was on some of the N64 platforming games : left stick for move up/down/left/right, and maybe keep the buttons A/X to speed up.

Also, i think some of the moves concatenation are a little bit frustating. For exemple, when we roll, there is a small frame during which you can't activate "super jump" (LT + A). I think it's frustating cause it break my momentum. Be able to do all the moves without this frame blocking would be far more gratifying in my opinion.

Other thing, about the animations, i find the Laylee animation a little weird when you talk to Inept. Nothing serious but strange, like if her neck has no consistence... like an elastic.
Also, the push animation is missing, but i consider that is the pre-alpha.

The camera now.
It's a bit glitchy right now. It stay stuck on a wall many times, and i think it's too close of the characters... well, actually not that close but, what i mean is the zoom out isnt go far enough. Miss a little bit.
By the way, about the camera, for the maze, i prefer the "bird-eye" angle obviously, cause we can have a better view of the playground.
A first person view is also missing in my opinion, but maybe it's planned for the final game.

And finally, there is ONE thing i regret. I'ts an artistic choice but... i think the underwater mood has the same problem than Banjo-Kazooïe : Nuts & Bolts. The muffled music is pretty generic in my opinion.
When i remember Banjo Kazooïe/Tooïe, the underwater zones were SOOOO magical, the jinglings of the xylophone has some sort of power... was sound like a fairy tale.
Of course, it's the devs choice, and maybe it's planned for the final game (i hope so much *_*), but... with the talented Grant Kirkhope and David Wise at the music, it would be such a mess in my opinion.

Well, i finished. Despites thoses small issues, i'm really hyped for this game. Great Work, old Rare. <3

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Mogz » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:14 pm

Most of the pros and cons/things to improve have already been mentioned here so I don't think those need to be repeated, however I do have one slightly nitpicky complaint that I haven't seen anyone else bring up. That being that I feel Yooka slips off ledges a little too easily.

In most 3D platformers you can stand slightly over the edge of a platform to make jumping over larger chasms a little easier. However in the Toybox I've found that getting near the edge of a platform/standing over the edge of the platform causes Yooka to slide off the platform and fall. It's messed me up a few times, not that much that it'd be a big problem, but I still feel it should be a little more clear how close to an edge you can stand before falling off. Particularly, I think it'd be better to get rid off the "sliding off" entirely. Make it so you simply fall off a platform if you're too close to a ledge, instead of making you slip off awkwardly.

It's a little difficult to explain exactly what I mean so I'll try to get some footage of it, maybe.

EDIT: In this case you can see Yooka walk off the edge by himself after I try inching closer to it. This is what I mean by "sliding off".

TheGuardian
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGuardian » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:21 pm

I have just played through the Toybox and first of all I’d like to comment how nice it felt to control these characters in my PC :D . Playing this demo felt like visiting some old friend while at the same time made me think again how very few 3D platformers there have been with good controls and that are actually fun since the GC / PS2 era.

Now regarding the game I have a list of things I’d like to share:

]-----------------------------------
1. Swimming controls
]-----------------------------------
Thread where this is being discussed:

So the question is whether to keep the current swimming controls or switch to another style like the one of Banjo Kazooie/Mario 64.

Here I have to say that although the current controls are very easy to use once learned they are much less fluid than the system used in Banjo, and this will be more noticeable when trying to collect items scattered in a 3D space and with some constrain such as time or “air reserve”.

Personally I would prefer the Banjo style controls for more easy 3D navigation including some faster swimming option for when we just want to quickly traverse water for instance at the cost of manoeuvrability. One thing to keep in mind of course is that if this system is used then the camera would have to change to always stay on the main characters’ backs just like if they were flying, otherwise it would be a nightmare to navigate like this.

Just for the sake of completion another option could be a hybrid system like the one used in Majora’s Mask: Using the current system for slow swimming and a faster swimming using the Banjo system (although I don’t think this is a very good system for this kind of game).

]-----------------------------------
2. Camera
]-----------------------------------
People say that the advent of dual stick controllers solved the problem of cameras from the old 3D games but in the case of 3D third person platformers I believe it did the opposite.

Regarding what I’ve seen with the Toybox I feel that the camera generally works well but some improvements would definitely be appreciated, particularly having a smarter camera and better tracking of the back of the character, and I believe the game would be more enjoyable in general if it could handle most of the camera positioning itself leaving the player to focus on the characters’ movement instead.

Taking a cue from the classic N64 3D platformers for instance having at least 2 height/zoom levels would help the player manage if he wants the camera to track the back of the characters automatically or have a more manual control of it.

And a few more comments on the camera:

- When jumping and especially when floating the camera could tilt just a bit higher in order to help the player better asses where will be the landing spot.
- When rolling, the camera could track the characters’ backs a little faster. This would help when navigating things like the spiral tower in the Toybox. The same applies for swimming.
- First person/Aiming view. Every once in a while the player might want to just stop and look around to search for that missing collectible or just admire the scenery. The current dual stick system is serviceable but not enough. The camera occasionally gets blocked by a wall or things can obstruct the view. A first person mode could fix this.

]-----------------------------------
3. Controller
]-----------------------------------

First of all and the most important thing please have Direct Input interface support besides xInput interface as I’m sure many people would like to use other controllers that are not Xbox controllers.

Additionally although I’m sure you will have an option to invert the camera’s Y-axis please also have an option to flip the X-axis which will be very useful for some especially if you add support for dInput controllers.

]-----------------------------------
4. Technical issues/glitches/exploits
]-----------------------------------

Just two things here:

One, the debris from destroyed barrels and boxes could be bothersome or get in the way of there are enemies around or something that needs to be pushed. It may be better if it disappeared after a few seconds or was not solid.

Second, certain actions such as rolling and tail jumping are activated immediately when the character touches ground if the player keeps holding the respective buttons. This may lead to glitches or exploits, for instance sometimes tail jumping next to a wall will do a double tail jump. Another example is in the rock formations in the Toybox; here you don’t need to climb the intended way. You can just hold the two required buttons and move around the rocks occasionally touching flat ledges in order to reach the top, although now that I think about it probably speed runners will appreciate if these “features” remain. :P

That’s it for now from me. I hope these help.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby bbundy09 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:54 pm

Wow. Overall, I have to say that I incredibly enjoyed the Toybox. I'll probably play the crap out of it until it comes out. But here are some of my first impressions.

The feel was there. It felt right. I know a lot of people were complaining about the swimming, but honestly once I figured out how it worked, I enjoyed it. Basically, it's like walking but incorporating an up/down mechanic with the buttons. I also had a little issue with the pushing of objects, especially that pink ball. Trying to get it up the ramp was a bit of a nightmare for me. I enjoyed the fixed camera in the glass maze area. I also enjoyed all of the secret rooms to find. Getting to the room with all of the terrain samples was fun looking for those spots outside the normal bounds of the level.

I also didn't have a great time rolling up the tower. I don't know if it was just me, but I spent way too long trying to get up there and kept falling. Eventually, I got up there but the slippery rolling mechanic swept me off the stage more than I could count. I appreciated the vagueness of the 100 quill switch location. I thought at first it was the room with all the particles in the air area, but it totally wasn't. That part alone got me hyped for the full game!

Grant did it again. The music worked. I also incredibly enjoyed the dialogue with Inept. The talking as well as the repeat dialog bit he said.

I didn't contribute enough for the Toybox+, so I can't say much about the fighting mechanics, but I enjoyed the neutral attack animation. Reminded me of Kazooie's solo attack in B-T.

One other thing I just thought of too was when I was doing the rolling and would roll at high speeds into water, I found that I would fling myself to the other side, and it felt like it was a bit much like the water wasn't stopping the inertia like it usually would. I don't know how exploitable it would be, but it's something to think about.

Overall it was amazing, and if I think of anything else, I'll post it later!

Aeralis
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Aeralis » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:06 am

My impressions from the Toybox:

The object physics were kinda... not great to play with. The boxes were wonky and it felt really weird to have no character feedback animation when pushing one (which I'm sure will be made later), but more importantly, the smashable boxes and barrels weren't great. It wasn't at all satisfying to smash them, as the pieces just kinda... fell to the ground with no impact, and the fact that the pieces were still solid objects that you could get hung up on was very worrisome. (And please, for the love of all that is good and pure in the world, do not put any ball-rolling into the final game!!!)

I really liked the windy corridors. They were a lot of fun to zoom through and I can see some neat puzzles being based around them.

Swimming felt very awkward. I've never been much of a fan of the "press A to ascend and B to descend" style of swimming controls in any game, it just feels like you have less control over your character.

Maybe I'm just used to the older games, but ground-pounding felt a little... slippery I guess? I'm referring to how if you jump while moving and execute your pound, you'll keep some of your forward momentum, often resulting in you missing the switch. I much prefer the older-style of executing a ground-pound fully stopping your momentum for greater accuracy.

Ball-rolling was great! Tons of fun to just roll around. The ball-rolling platforming tower was not great! The style of movement does not lend itself very well to precision platforming at all.

Laylee is adorable. I love how she kicks her little feet while swimming and her "gliding" sounds were so cute I often found myself "gliding" for no reason other than to hear her.

Being forced to come to a full stop when, say, picking up a Quill to listen to it talk was annoying. Please allow for text to be displayed in these instances while not interrupting movement. (I immediately knew I had to smash open that first treasure chest, but just as I was about to BAM, interrupted for tutorial!)

Seriously, please don't make us roll any balls in the final game.

Those particle effects were gorgeous. :)

zybst
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby zybst » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:50 am

First thing I want to say, is that this game is pretty solid for being in Pre-Alpha. That said, if Playtonic wants feedback, I can nitpick, in hopes that it helps.

I just played through the whole Toybox+, and had a lot of fun, but noticed a few things that could be better (in my opinion), and thought of a couple of things that might be nice.

-Maybe there could be a proper animation for when you push against a block or floating raft?
-It would be nice to have a camera setting where it didn't try to automatically go behind you. I had that mess me up on a few jumps, and felt it wasn't a necessity, given that the right bumper centers the cam, and you can use the control stick to do it as well.
-I noticed that when you double jump towards an edge, while pressing forward, your double jump won't achieve full height, and you won't begin the glide animation. When trying again in the same places without holding forwards, I can go high enough. This just makes it feel slightly clunky.
-When trying to swim up or down ever so slightly, I feel like I always go too far, and get stuck in the rising or falling animation (maybe it's just me).
-Lastly, although I have the toybox+, I was unable to do the X move combo, it just spun me repeatedly.

Hope this helps guys, I'm unlikely to check back on here, but wanted to leave some feedback. Awesome work on the game, I look forward to its' release!


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