Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Discussion and feedback for Playtonic's debut game, platformer adventure game Yooka-Laylee!
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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Xellos » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:58 pm

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby rocho » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:06 pm

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby mrlafle » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:28 pm

Just finished the toybox and I have a few constructive criticisms...

1. The main camera needs some work: obviously an invert-x option would be great, but there should also be a way to lock the camera in one place as the characters move. Zelda: wind waker does it well... moving the camera with the stick will put it in "lock" mode, and pressing R to forward-face it puts it back in default "dynamic" mode. I also liked the automatic camera placement in the puzzle section... perhaps that would have been handy in climbing the tower with the reptile roll as well?

2. I would be fine with the swimming mechanics as they are, but I've always liked the ability to swim at different speeds, like in mario 64 or banjo kazooie. Also, the underwater sections MUST have remixed versions of the level themes, and not just "muffled" versions the way Nuts & Bolts did it!

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Slippery Controls

Postby Rhoran » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:54 am

I love this game! I just played Toy Box+ and had a blast!

That said, I have an issue with the controls.

I wish the controls were tighter like in Banjo-Kazooie. These slippery controls make platforming very frustrating.

I overshot my jumps and ground pounds all the time. I even slid off narrow platforms that I would have otherwise landed on. It didn't matter if I was walking or rolling.

Stopping in mid-air during a pound would be a welcome change as well.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Floyd » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:45 pm

Finally got around to testing out the Toybox! It's great fun and the game will obviously be awesome, even if the final game works exactly like the Toybox. It can always be better though, so here are my observations from a game design perspective:

-Ground Pound allows too much movement at the start of the move before slamming down, resulting in a lot of overshot switches when approaching them at speed. It also allows too little movement after impact.

-Conversely, crouching seems to stop you on a dime, when sliding would almost always be preferable since crouching is mainly used to to a high jump, and usually while running. Coming to a halt kind of breaks the flow.

-Sliding on ramps is a little awkward - you move very slowly at first, yet you immediately get locked out from jumping once you touch the ramp, which feels off. Banjo-Kazooie and Mario 64 let you jump for a bit, and also have two modes of sliding - a sitting mode that still lets you jump, and a free-tumbling mode sliding on the stomach that doesn't. Trying to jump backward to climb a ramp while in the sitting mode would usually end up putting you in the helpless sliding mode. Basically, those games handled sliding more dynamically and made the player feel like they had more control, even if trying to jump up a long ramp was ultimately futile, and when jumping was no longer possible it made more logical sense thanks to the animation.

-Rolling could be improved, specifically animation-wise. There's a lack of feeling of traction which could be fixed by adding a trail on the ground behind you or just more dust particles. Also, maybe consider not allowing rolling from a standstill since it looks a bit weird. Building up some speed before going into a roll is more fun anyway, see the old Sonic games. Also worth considering: Rolling straight ahead could be faster, while turning could reduce speed for tighter control. There could be a "full speed mode" activated by rolling straight for a few seconds, with a flashy transition and additional particle effects. Finally, it should be possible to do some kind of recovery after rolling off a ledge. Just the flutter move would be enough - allowing actual jumping would probably be too strong. The flutter will allow the player to possibly land further down a slope they fell off.

-Some moves hinder control responsiveness during parts of their animations. For example, you can't jump while transitioning between rolling and running, which can be annoying.

-Pushing objects around feels kind of amateurish because there's no separate animation or physics for it. Just running into objects to move them around trying to keep them balanced in front of you was considered bad design even in the 90s. This feels like gameplay that will likely be changed or even removed in the final game though.

These are mainly just nitpicks though, the controls are very good for the most part. Lots of touches I appreciate, like the extra shadow for aiming jumps. I'm sure it will be fun regardless of whether any of this is changed in the final game!

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Rhoran » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:15 am

See, I'm fine with the rolling as it is. It is the equivalent of the Tallon Trot from BK. I just wish you stopped on a dime and didn't have so much momentum.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Floyd » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:24 am

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby mrdiscopop » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:50 pm

I finally got the chance to download and play in the Toybox... Wasn't expecting the nostalgia rush to be quite so overwhelming, but I was flung right back to 1998, and hours spent playing Banjo Kazooie in my first ever flat, right out of university. Even the wonky camera brought back memories!

I particularly liked how the separate areas interlinked - with areas on one only accessible by conquering another. From what I've read, this will be an even bigger feature in the finished game, so bravo.

Like others, I found the tower on the second island frustrating - until I raised you could "brake" on a slope simply by letting go of the left stick. Once I mastered that, it seemed easy.

I was never a fan of swimming in the Mario / Banjo / Conker games and the water sections lived down to my expectations. Having said that, the controls were more intuitive than I remember. But I dread to think how it will handle with obstacles and "enemies" to avoid.

Oh, and I preferred the overhead camera to the over-the-shoulder and fixed-perspective variations in the enclosed platform.

Simply can't wait for the full game.

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toybox+ feedback

Postby oxitran » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:34 pm

Just a little feedback after playing toybox+.

I know that in the toybox the devs wanted feedback on the camera angles, but honestly apart from the default camera each was awful. As feedback on the default camera itself, it was great except for an issue where the camera could be caught on corners, alot!

I don't see why one cannot jump while rolling and then glide mid jump, it felt unnatural that I couldn't.
Swimming felt weird, having to manually level out after diving and rising was strange, it should be near automatic.
The rolling was great, being able to alter the speed so easily was amazing.
As for the jumping, the glide jump would spaz out if I tried to do it to close to a wall, as if the game wouldn't allow the animation to happen when to close to the wall.

Overall the game felt great and was a ton of fun, I cant wait till the final game.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Robb1324 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:11 pm

Some of these complaints/requests on this thread are suuuuuper hyper specific, it's actually quite amusing to read through.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby mixiekins » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:54 am

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby jimnastics » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:16 am

When I launched it for the first time and Yooka and Laylee were standing there at the start, I sat and stared at the screen for a couple of minutes with my heart racing... I think subconsciously I was too nervous to move the stick! A 15+ year wait since Tooie..... it's been a loooooong time. But my god guys, you're nailing it. Felt like I was 16 again, a care-free teen running around Mumbo's Mountain for the first time. So absoultely can't wait for release to play together with my little boy :)

The only two things I would say which have probably been mentioned are:

1. Instant stop in mid-air and descend with Beak Buster equivilant move (sorry, can't remember the YL name!). A lot of times I'd line up a button, but miss as YL drifted a bit through the air first. Basically, mimic it is in BK.

2. Enable some skidding when crouching during running. This felt so natural and intuitive in BK, running then crouch-skidding before flip flap jumping. It felt like you were comboing some moves together. In YL, the instant-stop kills momentum.

Keep up the great work 8-)

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby connormxy » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:20 pm

I don't think I need anymore to say how excited I was to get to play this Toybox+, but I don't think I'd be able to adequately express it if I tried.

Solicited and unsolicited feedback:

Puzzle Camera
In the block-pushing puzzle, preferred the last option of the three. Some free camera can be fun in some situation, but I did like getting some help in stabilizing my view while working in a maze. A bit of motion, with the camera following Yooka's movement was critical to not just break me out of my zone. Maybe the middle, top-down, was more useful, but it was too still, and leaving a corner obscured could be a fun place for secrets.
(My ideal puzzle camera is the maze from Bubblegloop Swamp or that from Gobi's Valley, for instance.)

Default Camera
Now, the regular player camera was just too close about 80% of the time. Besides getting itself stuck around some corners (the stone arches being a worthwhile example), I felt like I was trapped looking at Laylee and unable to see what was right in front of or next to Yooka. In fact, I found myself getting motion sick, which usually only happens when watching somebody else control a video game like this (and still doesn't happen with Banjo-Kazooie!). I appreciated that raising the camera to look down on our duo opened up my field of view a bit but I was unable to maintain this, and I don't always want to look down just to see what is around me. Instead, controls to zoom out or a more dynamic camera that can automatically pull away or get closer depending on Yooka's surroundings and speed would help this out very much.

I feel weird about this. I love the idea, but it (necessarily) isn't analogous to the Talon Trot for a few reasons. Because of the wheel motion and the high speed, turning has to have a wide radius, but I wonder if it is too far. Maybe the game is just hard and I have to get over it. But I wonder if this is intentional. On slopes, the Talon Trot could hold Kazooie up not because of her speed but because of her claws, and she could stand still on a slope for this reason. Rolling Yooka onto a slope at speed can reasonably keep the pair traveling up a slope, but I cannot figure out why this means they can stop rolling without falling. There is no obvious increase in friction holding them up, and it seems counterintuitive to use "slowing down and stopping while rolling" to navigate intricate slopes. Should jumping in the air after Rolling off a ledge initiate a double jump, or at least Laylee flapping a few times? This was a switch in Tooie from Kazooie, to allow a Feathery Flap to end a talon trot midair but to permit a double jump from the speed move.

I feel like I have no control over my depth with the up and down buttons. I would really love to just keep using the two sticks that we already have when walking around; use the left stick to move forward and backward, turn, or determine speed, and use the right stick to reorient the camera to turn or dive or surface. This would be more like what we are used to in previous games (making best use of the two sticks nowadays instead of one stick and a button to swim forward), and is more consistent with the normal controls of walking around.

Ground Smash
Once initiated, this should put an end to lateral movement, or at least slow it down more than it currently is doing.

Character Dialogue
When pressing A to speed up dialogue, it currently skips to the end of a phrase. This is a little confusing, as I am used to holding A to speed up dialogue, and having control over the rate of character speech. I also miss hearing the mumbles, even sped up. That was like, half of the fun! Yes, if I am pressing A I want to go faster, but I don't want it all over in a second, either!

Anyway, I'm freaking out about how much fun I'm still having and how much fun the Toybox+ was. I cannot wait to see what you folks do again.

So many thanks for your work.
Last edited by connormxy on Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Forstride » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:10 pm

Gonna post all of the feedback I can think of off the top of my head:

Swimming Controls:

Swimming controls are pretty awkward IMO. I'd much rather have them like BK, BT, and just about every other 3D platformer. Full 360 degree movement, and two buttons for swimming at different speeds. It just feels so unnatural the way it currently is.

Ground Pounding:

Your momentum should be halted, or at least slowed down a LOT more than it currently is. Right now, if you try to ground pound over the center of a switch, you might end up going completely past it.

Ledge Grabbing:

The game could really, REALLY use ledge grabbing. Not sure how to expand on this thought, but yeah, plzadd.

Sound Effects:

Some sound effects, like the slide whistle screen transition sound, sound really unfitting, and the volume level for some sound effects (Such as the one I just mentioned) are so off balance.


There NEEDS to be an animation when pushing things. It doesn't even need to snap to the object perfectly. It could just be Yooka holding his arms up like he's pushing it. Just SOMETHING other than the default walking animation.

Minor Nitpicky Stuff:

The 3D speech bubble that appears above NPCs when you can talk to them is really unfitting. It should just be a 2D sprite IMO. Also, please for the love of god change the default talk button to X or B. Having it set to A is soooooo weird. Also also, I don't think the camera should zoom in so much when you talk to an NPC.

This might already be planned already, but please add unique button/controller icons for the Xbox One controller. The default color scheme for the controller is black instead of white, the Start/Back buttons are completely different icons, and the ABXY buttons have a black backing, with colored text, rather than the whole button being colored.

It's not a big deal, but it would really go a long way to making the game feel more professional.

Closing Thoughts:

Overall, the controls felt nice (Aside from swimming), moves felt fitting and were fun to play around with, especially rolling, the characters and animations and whatnot are nice, and most of the sound effects are good.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Pang_Tong » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:57 pm

Just got done with the Toybox here's my feedback, in no particular order. I realize a lot of this may already plan to be addressed. I hope you read it!

- The idle animations while in dialogue with NPCs seemed a little inconsistent. Often they would play several times in a row consecutively with no ordinary "standing around" animation which looked a little odd.
- It looks weird how there's no idle animation for standing still while in "roll form". Laylee kind of just freezes in place which looks strange.
- At first I thought that rolling allowing you to move on slopes was because of the momentum, but when I found that you can stand still on slopes just by being in roll-mode I thought that was a little weird. It didn't make sense the way Talon Trot did in BK. It felt like I should start slipping. This isn't a big deal though and may have to stay the same anyway for gameplay reasons.
- Rolling around on the ground felt good but it was somewhat annoying trying to climb the tower with the blue slopes because even if you stop dead, you're still subject to the wide turning circle once you start moving again. It was easy to jump over to the next slope but then accidentally roll off the side because yooka turned too wide, when all you wanted to do was change directions. Again this may be necessary for a gameplay difficulty/balance thing since otherwise rolling would always be superior. (Addendum: I found that you have greater control of turning while rolling if you move slower, but it feels off because you can only turn while moving and not while still. So if you to full speed from a standstill you won't get any extra control at all, you have to deliberately move slow)
- The slopes on which Yooka could stand and which ones he would slip on were inconsistent. I suspect this will be addressed visually in-game somehow, like how all the slip-slopes were blue in the toybox. But it looked weird how sometimes a very shallow slope would cause me to slip while other times I could stand on a very steep slope.
- The teetering/pivoting platforms that change angle depending where you stand on them felt kind of pointless, because no matter how much you angle them, yooka doesn't fall off. If he started slipping at a steep enough angle, or the platforms could rotate all the way around so he just gets dumped off, that would make more sense.
- Not being able to jump while sliding down a slope feels bad, but perhaps that would make sliding gameplay too easy. In BK I recall you could try running up a steep slope for a time, but you'd quickly slow down and eventually lose momentum and slip, but in the Toybox you start slipping pretty much immediately which looks a bit weird and isn't very fun.
- The swimming controls are fine fundamentally (i.e. X for descent, A for ascent), but they lack responsiveness. Yooka takes too long to start swimming when you press the button, and keeps swimming for too long after you let go of the button. It feels "mushy". He's also really slow underwater which is a little frustrating.
- If I was rubbing/pushing against the side a big environmental object like the stone arches, the flappy/gliding extra jump move would refuse to activate in some areas, and would cancel if I was already doing it and then collided with the object. This doesn't happen with the regular level geometry though. It's annoying when it happens because it can mess up your jump.
- Sometimes when I jumped out of the water, the camera would jerk around A LOT and very abruptly. It also looks like there was a problem with the animation and Yooka was teleporting upwards a bit before falling back in. The issue seemed to fix itself and I couldn't replicate it on my own so I dunno what happened.
- If you do a spin attack while running off the edge of a platform, you don't lose any height while the attack is going, you basically just hover in the air. You can also then exit the attack with a regular jump and double jump combo, allowing you to get a LOT of extra distance on your jumps (but only if you start the jump before Yooka starts falling). I have no idea if this is intentional, but it feels kind of overpowered. It seems like you should lose height when falling off a platform while attacking, and you probably shouldn't then be able to do a full jump like you would off the ground.

- I liked the enemy designs and sounds, but the way they "morphed" in size and shape depending on their animation looks really weird. In particular, they get quite visibly "squished" when they are cowering in fear which looks super strange. It looked like some sort of error with the model but I suspect it was intentional.
- When I was hitting enemies I would sometimes get a slightly different animation or visual effect. It looked like I was doing some kind of extra or different attack. I kept pressing the attack button to try and figure out what I did but but I couldn't replicate it. Is it just a random effect when hitting enemies? I think attack visuals should be consistent so that people know what they are able to do. If there is a different effect or animation they should be able to figure out how to replicate it.
- I think you should be able to attack while jumping, but I suspect there will be such a move in the final game.
- I also think there should be some sort of underwater attack for when you're swimming.
- When hitting the chests to open them, I feel like they open a bit too quickly and smoothly. I think opening chests should feel good, it should have a satisfying "THUNK" sound when you hit them and maybe make the chest rock around a bit from the hit while opening.
- Similar for enemies, hitting them didn't feel satisfying. There should be a nice, meaty bashing sound when you hit them. Also, I think they should actually hit the ground with a nice "boff" sound before they disappear in a cloud of particle effects, instead of vanishing as soon as they touch it.
- When I was coming out of the room in the area with the enemies, the newly respawned enemies in the area would start moving and attacking before I regained control of Yooka. This doesn't seem right.
- I think it would be nice if NPCs reacted when you hit them with an attack. I was a little disappointed when I hit Inept and nothing happened.

- I dunno if this is a bug or intentional, but when going in and out of the room with the particle effects, the music would revert to the normal stage music while loading the area, then change back to the "altered" form once you had control. Seems like it should have just kept playing the version it was already playing.
- Based on the Toybox and trailers, the environmental lighting in the game looks a little "flat". I think some ambient occlusion would go a long way, if it's possible.
- I think it would be fun if there was a "tiptoe" animation for when you walk really slowly.

Camera stuff:
- The camera was not always cooperative. I think that it might place too much emphasis on keeping Yooka in-view, since when you are around low-walls (like in the ball-pushing area), the camera tends to zoom in and out rapidly as the camera is adjusted to be above or below the wall. This feels kind of annoying, and it can also cause the camera to zoom in too much, and you can't get a good look at your surroundings.
- Additionally, it felt like I didn't really have control of the zoom level of the camera. Sometimes it would come in too close and the only way to make it go out again was to fiddle with the angle, which felt kind of janky and imprecise. It would be nicer if there were zoom controls.
- Sometimes the camera would "stick" to walls, staying still as Yooka continued to run off into the distance. Eventually it would snap back to being behind Yooka, but the "sticking" didn't make much sense. It would usually happen if there was a wall behind and to the side of Yooka, and I moved the camera in the direction of the wall (so that the wall would be between Yooka and the camera). This would cause the camera to stick.
- Sometimes the camera didn't respond at all. This was mostly when I was at the very top of the level, overlooking the rest. In certain positions, the camera would just be angled directly down and no amount of adjusting could get it to look upward. I couldn't get a nice smooth pan across the landscape like I wanted.
- Of the camera angles offered in the "box-pushing" area, I liked the second one the most, the one that was mostly overhead. I thought it was well done how the controls stayed relative to the camera which made it easy to navigate.
- I think there should be something that lets you view in first-person, just for looking around while standing still.

Edit: Couple other things I've read in the thread that I want to corroborate.
- It would be nice if you slid across the ground a little when entering a crouch while running, like you could in BK. This lets you move into a crouch-jump more easily.
- The ability to grab ledges (and possibly move along them while doing so) would be useful. I think Banjo could do this in BK.
- Like the guy above mentioned, I think pressing/holding a button should make dialogue just progress faster instead of skipping directly to the end of the box.
- An animation for pushing boxes or other objects would be nice. This could also be done when running against a wall. I'm reminded of how in Conker's Bad Fur Day, Conker would put his hands up against a wall if you walked into one.
- It would feel good if you could enter the flappy/glide extra jump out of a rolling jump. Hopefully that wouldn't be overpowered in the actual game.
- Like someone mentioned, it would be nice if there was a stumbling/tumbling animation when running with the wind, and if you run/roll into the wind (instead of just having the run animation sped up), it should look like you're going against it at full speed instead of the animation being slowed down.
- I do wish there was a celebratory animation when you pick up the pagie!

Not feedback, but I can't believe people really prefer the Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie swimming to this! That stuff where you had to pivot yourself in the direction you wanted to go? That was crap! The controls in the YL Toybox are much more intuitive, they just need to be more responsive.

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Octopeart » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:15 pm

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby clanker » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:29 pm

I've meaning to pop in over here and post Toybox feedback, and I guess this is the place to do it! I've played through the Toybox+ a few times, found everything, etc.

Before I give any kind of constructive criticism/talk about things I wished were different, I want to say that I loved this demo, and I had a ton of fun just walking and jumping around in the world, which (imo) is exactly how a game like this should be. The combat felt good, too. The writing is perfect. The humor is perfect. The characters have tons of personality in their animations. The easter eggs and secrets were everything I could have hoped for. The music is wonderful. Looking at the whole package, I was absolutely charmed. All the details that add to the mood/feel/nostalgia are really nice, like the screen transitions with the characters faces and the slide whistle sfx, and the pause menu. I'm super excited for the full game, and I trust Playtonic to do an excellent job with the final product.

There were a few things in the demo that I thought might be improved if they were tweaked/changed a bit:

• When I was playing, I couldn't help but wish Yooka had a ledge-grab. I don't have a strong defense for this opinion, I am just a bit rubbish at platformers and it would prevent me from doing a lot of falling.

• Overall, I loved how Yooka and Laylee controlled. Basically, if you've played a Banjo game, you could pick it right up and understand how it plays, and that's great! Giving a lot of height on the double jump is nice, too. Even the swimming controls felt right, and I feel like that's the thing so many platformers get wrong. The one thing that was causing me frustration was Laylee's roll-talon-trot thing. I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt while I was playing, and I get that it's supposed to be more physics based than Kazooie was in the B-K games, but I didn't enjoy having to build speed or the very wide turns. I found myself missing Kazzoie's ability to stop, start, and turn on a dime, and having that full-throttle speed. The thing that bothered me most was the wide turning. I had an extremely frustrating time trying to get up that one tall mountain with the ramps where you had to Laylee-roll over them. At that part, I felt like my falls were the fault of Laylee's unruly rolling more than it was my fault. Rolling around aimlessly with Laylee is fun enough, but for precision, I don't think it's a good fit. Even if it's kept as physics-y, I think even toning it down just a little bit would help a lot.

• The physics-based object-pushing puzzles were somewhat frustrating to me. I felt like I didn't have control of where the objects were going. This was especially difficult with that pink ball. I would have liked it much more if Yooka had some kind of push animation where he could actually guide objects instead of just bump-walking into them and hoping for the best.

• The nemesis of every 3D platform game: the camera. I actually thought the default camera-following-you behaved pretty well overall. The camera gave me the most grief on that big mountain where you have to roll up the ramps. I was having a hard time managing lining up the camera right to line up my rolls. Generally, there were a lot of times where I wished I had more up/down tilt control on the camera to get more of like, a top-down-ish view of some of the platforming.

Although I put a lot of thought into what was working for me and what wasn't, ultimately, I am not a game designer, and Playtonic has an impressive pedigree. If a build of the game that's this early is already this much fun, I'm not worried. 8-)

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby lavamario » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:13 pm

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby mattythewolf » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:58 pm

Very happy with the sandbox! Collected everything and had a good look.

That being said:
- mainly a few problems with the camera, feels very much like Banjo-Kazooie but can be a bit claustrophobic,
- swimming is often awkward, partially because of the camera but also because the controls can be a bit clumsy,
- the rolling movement works well but cornering is quite tough (is leaning into the turns or sliding possible?),
- can't fault the sound design although I'm not sure how no copyright has been breached (thankfully),
- graphically everything is looking very sharp however there is the odd infinite sight line,
- the particle effects look great particularly the water and the flame but the electricity effect looks oddly cartoon and the flamethrower looks a bit generic (I'm being fussy here, Unity can only do so much),
- a couple of design flaws might have carried over from Banjo-Kazooie, fans won't care but 2016 reviewers will.

Other than that everything looks great, can't wait to see the finished product!

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Re: Toybox feedback & discussion thread (SPOILERS)

Postby wacky ducky » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:58 pm

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