Let's Talk Swimming

Discussion and feedback for Playtonic's debut game, platformer adventure game Yooka-Laylee!

Swimming Preference?

Current Toybox Swimming Mechanic
21
21%
Banjo Kazooie/Tooie Style Swimming
69
68%
Other
12
12%
 
Total votes: 102

Pearcinator
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Pearcinator » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:28 pm

I like the sink/rise mechanic but would also like some button to press for faster swimming (maybe even make it so if you press the button with good rhythm/timing you go even faster!). Something about the resistance of the water and objects don't feel right to me.

xiriusnoodles
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby xiriusnoodles » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:21 am

The swimming controls are unconventional compared to most 3D platformers I have played, but they have some advantages compared to the "aim character and swim" approach. For one, by mapping horizontal/lateral movement to the joystick and vertical movement to buttons, it's possible to introduce a larger underwater moveset that does not entirely consist of "spin or dive furiously at target". With Yooka's movement independent of the camera, you can look behind you and see what's attacking from behind, without having to stop and slowly point yourself at the threat. If Yooka gets to use his tongue to grab and carry objects and enemies, he could carry them underwater to use as ammo or to keep an underwater switch weighed down. There could also be instances where you need to grab floating boxes, drag them underwater, and move them to another location to use as platforms. With the classic "point and swim" controls, you would have to aim the character at the object and then try to grab it, all while the camera changes angle constantly to stay behind you. This is not to say that the current implementation has faults, though. It would be nice if Yooka would swim faster with the Right Trigger, and do some torpedo attack with the Left Trigger, though this could be solved by making those moves unlockable. The general lag in the transition to vertical movement (rising, diving) does need to fixed. If I see something directly under me or above me, I want to go straight toward it, not a bit to the left or right of it.

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Meinhard1
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Meinhard1 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:56 am

I think there's a definite simplicity to the current YL swimming controls once you understand that buttons are used to adjust depth.

However part of the fun of swimming in other games in the sense of full 360 movement. In the toybox you always dive or rise at the same angle ... it's more mechanical.

I guess I'd sooner just have BKs style if I could choose.

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Tamashii7
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Tamashii7 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:00 am

Last edited by Tamashii7 on Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ShanPen
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby ShanPen » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:31 am

Last edited by ShanPen on Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tamashii7
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Tamashii7 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:56 am


GeneralWalnut
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby GeneralWalnut » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:46 am


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Punksthetic
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Punksthetic » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:06 am

So I noticed a lot of people bring up Ratchet & Clank's swimming controls, which were serviceable if I remember correctly... However, think about all the things you actually DID underwater in those games. Not much... Now, in Banjo-Tooie, and even BK to an extent, there were a great many things you were capable of, and so more precise swimming controls were needed to accomplish those tasks. In Ratchet & Clank, I believe you're just going from point A to point B. No real challenge underwater, so no real "nuance" of control was needed. Just wanted to make that distinction clear.

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Tamashii7
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Tamashii7 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:59 pm

Last edited by Tamashii7 on Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

BlackKoromon
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby BlackKoromon » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:42 pm


Trisscologge
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Trisscologge » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:01 pm

Swimming is my ONLY concern with the demo. Sure, it's not impossible to execute, but it really does ruin the game's immersion and doesn't make sense in the long run. The more buttons you have to push to accomplish a simple task would make anyone lose the sense of freedom and fluidity while moving around, especially under water. We don't have N64 controllers anymore, we have 2 (can you believe it?!) Joysticks now!!!

PS: Playtonic, you guys should put either option in the menu. That would benefit everyone! ;)

BlackKoromon
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:10 pm

Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby BlackKoromon » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:20 pm

If we're talking concerns with the Toybox then:

1) The controls as I am able to access them are attrocious (utterly). The game is clearly designed for a controller but, since I own the sort of Xbox controller than works on an actual 360, I have nothing that'll work with steam.
2) The tutorial text tells me nothing about the controls for a keyboard, which wouldn't be a problem if it didn't mean I had to try every key to find the pause menu where I could access them (P for Pause is something I haven't seen since Mac OS7).
3) Textures of rocks and grass pop and jiggle as I approach them.
4) Being able to jerk forward slowly as the ball is counterintuitive, if helpful.
5) The camera angle change as you exit the last block pushing room is quite jarring.
6) While the yellow blocks clearly exist to provide colour contrast, the existence of 2 different blues heavily implied all other shades would be significant, yet pink does nothing (not a future concern, just irksome).
7) Since the map is quite uniform in appearance, it's super easy to lose all track of where to go post-death.
8) Lack of ledgegrabbing means precision platforming is needed, interacting badly with the lackluster keyboard/mouse controls. I assume this we be unlockable in the real game though.

Swimming does not make the list.

SupertoastGT
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby SupertoastGT » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:43 am

I Definitely prefer the old swimming setup. The toybox+ was awesome and I'm glad I had the opportunity to try it. Can't wait to see the full game!

But yeah, swimming really was the only issue I had. The changed controlls just don't feel right. Gotta go with the BK style: Pitch and steer with the left stick, swim with A (Or X on PS4.)

I found all 100 quills, and the secrets that took forever to find. Good times. :D

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bbundy09
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby bbundy09 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:07 am

At first, I wasn't really on board with the whole Yooka-Laylee swimming mechanic. Probably because I am so used to B-K and B-T for swimming. However, I think the concept is really clever. Using the directions to move and the buttons to go up and down. I did feel like it was slow, but that it could use some button to speed up or something.

I'm also curious if there will be air in the final game or not. That might be something that makes it more crucial to have faster swimmers. I mean they both swim currently but they don't go too fast.

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ReturnRare
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby ReturnRare » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:31 am

Guys, I've found evidence that points to this new form of swimming being an experiment by Playtonic to test whether or not fans would like it compared to more traditional 3D swimming controls.

First of all, Playtonic is listening specifically to feedback about the swimming mechanic as evidenced by Andy Robinson's reply to my tweet:



Also, in the code people have decompiled from the game files swimming is mentioned as "SwimUnderwaterMotionV2", meaning that at one point another version of the swimming mechanic existed. I didn't find the original (V1) of the swimming mechanic within the code but the fact that swimming is the only thing named as "V2" means that they kept a previous version of the swimming mechanic and gave us the reworked version of it just to see if "Swimming V2" should be kept or if they should go back to what I presume was a swimming mechanic similar to how it worked in their classic 3D platformers.

There were probably other mechanics that were reworked throughout development but swimming was the only one to be changed dramatically enough to warrant the creation of a separate section of code instead of writing over the previous version of "SwimUnderwater" thus making it harder to revert back to the previous version. In other words, they knew people would be on the fence about this one and they probably weren't sure about it themselves.

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GeneralWalnut
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby GeneralWalnut » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:16 am


Estêvão
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Estêvão » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:12 pm


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CyanideInsanity
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby CyanideInsanity » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:11 pm

I think I'd be perfectly fine with this type of control if you ascended/descended only while the buttons are pressed. It just doesn't feel smooth to move up or down so much with a single press and release of the buttons. Also I feel the camera is just a bit too close, though I don't mind the fish-eye effect.

I don't know what their plans for the underwater moveset are, but they should probably map the triggers as their own actions instead of a secondary rise/sink.

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Bingo675
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Bingo675 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:34 am

As some have mentioned, I agree that there can easily be a middle ground in the form of continuing to have buttons to ascend/descend, while also having a button to hold or tap rhythmically to go faster. I don't think that that's overly complicated for new players either.

EDIT: Actually, let's throw that all away and get some motion control support so we can have Zelda Skyward Sword-esque controls! Anyone else remember that gem?

Volvagia
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Re: Let's Talk Swimming

Postby Volvagia » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:48 am



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